Antique toilet 14" rough in

[Jadnashua]

This webpage contains a chart on various states that describe what can be installed, whether new construction or during a remodel

http://www.ncsl.org/research/enviro...ter-efficient-plumbing-fixtures635433474.aspx

 

[Reach4]

This webpage contains a chart on various states that describe what can be installed, whether new construction or during a remodel

Your version of a retraction, or defending your confabulation?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

Depending on where you live, you cannot install an antique toilet during a remodel. Call that whatever you want. The Feds won't let any manufacturer build one, and in some states, you can't even install an older one that may be new that does not meet current standards. In some states, the inspector WILL fail an installation of a non-conforming toilet, and in CA, coming soon, they may start requiring old ones to be replaced with newer ones. In some, it is illegal to import, sell, or install a non-conforming toilet, whether you are an individual or company.

Where large parts of the US (and the world) are experiencing shortages of fresh water, it's not wise to maybe triple or quadruple the use with each flush. In places where maybe you can do it, IMHO, you shouldn't, and in many states, they agree with me. The Feds got this started by ensuring no new toilets could be made that didn't meet certain efficiency requirements.

 

[Jadnashua]

That's funny.
There is nothing in our plumbing code which prevents the re-use of old fixtures. You should post some legitimate evidence which supports this idea.

Depending on where you live, yes, there are laws that prevent you from selling, importing, or installing a toilet that does not meet current Federal requirements (while it may not be in the actual plumbing code, there ARE laws that prohibit this in more than one state)...this may not apply in Kansas, but definitely does in some states, and is IMHO, socially irresponsible everywhere. It applies in CA, CO and CT (cannot be sold, doesn't indicate new or used), GA, NV, NY, TX, WA, and is pending in a few other states, exact impact still not determined. I assume that a plumbing license requires the holder to uphold the laws and regulations that are covering the work they do...in many of these, it also applies to any individual performing the work, regardless of whether they are a homeowner, contractor, or other practitioner. Some of these laws are fairly new, some have been around since the 1990's when the Feds made it illegal to manufacturer new ones that didn't meet the standards.

 

[lanachurner]

The Energy Policy Act of 1992, which became law in 1994, mandates a maximum flush volume of 1.6 gallons for toilets manufactured and installed after this date. Modern toilets that use even less water than this may be certified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's WaterSense Program.

You're installing a toilet...therefore, it must abide by these requirements. While you can repair an existing one, you cannot install an old one that does not meet these regulations. A plumbing inspector should fail the install. Now, whether he will or not, is another issue altogether.

Where large parts of the US (and the world) are experiencing shortages of fresh water, it's not wise to maybe triple or quadruple the use with each flush. In places where maybe you can do it, IMHO, you shouldn't, and in many states, they agree with me. The Feds got this started by ensuring no new toilets could be made that didn't meet certain efficiency requirements.

Shucks.
Over on the Airstream Trailer forums they deprecate guys that drive pickups with no load in the back. They call them "air haulers" and talk about needing laws to prevent people from doing that because there is no need to be driving such big, gas guzzling vehicles.
They denigrate the guys who do it and even suggest they might have issues in the size department.
To be honest, I must admit I have taken the two tool boxes out of my late model Chevy 3/4 ton and airhauled with it to go hunting a few times.
I did feel guilty about it afterwards tho and didn't sleep well for a few days.
Now I'm being told I will be socially and ecologically irresponsible if I use this beautiful but water wasting old toilet.
Hmmm.
I know this is not a health forum but does anyone here have a recommendation for a good, non prescription sleeping aid?

 

[Jadnashua]

About half of Kansas is abnormally dry http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Home/StateDroughtMonitor.aspx?KS and you want to install something that uses probably 400% more water than needed, so, yes, I think that is socially irresponsible, and in more than one state, illegal.

 

[Terry]

I know this is not a health forum but does anyone here have a recommendation for a good, non prescription sleeping aid?

I prefer having a beer at night for sleeping. Goes down real well.

Here in Seattle, even with rain, we sometimes have to ration water in the Summer months. They sometimes give rebates when people remove the old toilets. A bigger plus is how much we save on our bi-monthly water bills when the switch is made. Normally the forun helps to find what is working for new products that can be bought off the shelf. Sometimes it's about fixing old stuff and keeping it in service. I have to say though, I'm chucking a lot of old antique toilets on a regular basis. I don't lose any sleep doing that either.

I know you're not from Kansas, but we do like to know what state people are from so we can better answer questions here. It saves "us" work.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I do feel for the people who lack the availabilty of water. Meanwhile, many of us in areas which are not effected are pumping thousands of gallons a day for irrigation and farm use. Being surrounded by this on a daily basis, I cannot bring myself to worry about how many gallons of water my toilet is using per flush. If I were in a different place that did have shortages, I'm sure that my opinion would quickly change.

 

[lanachurner]

I prefer having a beer at night for sleeping. Goes down real well.

Here in Seattle, even with rain, we sometimes have to ration water in the Summer months. They sometimes give rebates when people remove the old toilets. A bigger plus is how much we save on our bi-monthly water bills when the switch is made. Normally the forun helps to find what is working for new products that can be bought off the shelf. Sometimes it's about fixing old stuff and keeping it in service. I have to say though, I'm chucking a lot of old antique toilets on a regular basis. I don't lose any sleep doing that either.

I know you're not from Kansas, but we do like to know what state people are from so we can better answer questions here. It saves "us" work.

I like the idea of drinking a beer but then you have to get up at night and use the bathroom. And that requires a flush
I tried to leave my location blank and even tried to change it from Kansas but somehow it's back to Kansas.
I'm in Minnesota. But Kansas will do.
Mr. Jadnashua,
I'm a new member here and all that but have been around forums for many years and have at least 30 thousand posts under my belt.
When I come onto a forum and ask questions about a specific thing I am looking for specific answers to that question.
Now i do understand that questions about plumbing can get involved in discussions about codes and laws and health and safety issues. That's fine with me.
But I am really not interested in moral equivalents, political philosophies or whether my use of earth's resources fits in with someone else's sensibilities.
I tried to make that clear in a jocular way in my last post but perhaps I failed.
Anyway, I am going to install an antique toilet in my bathroom.
I like the way old fixtures and accoutrements look.
I will do this despite your best efforts to bring me to reason, rehabilitate my thinking or brow beetle me.
Because my sense of aesthetics trumps any and all concerns from you and anyone like you.
I hope you understand.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Anyway, I am going to install an antique toilet in my bathroom.

Yup, I got a nice Eljer circa 1951 in my new bathroom. I just love the way it sounds! I don't know why, but since I was a kid, I always stuck around and waited until the bowl empties out. Must be a 4.0 GPF fetish (I actually measured it by filling it with my beer pitcher).

 

[Smooky]

I know this is not a health forum but does anyone here have a recommendation for a good, non prescription sleeping aid?

When I've got some plumbing problem keeping me awake at night, I just drink a cup of Sleepytime Tea:
http://www.celestialseasonings.com/products/herbal/sleepytime-classic

If it is a big plumbing problem that is keeping me awake, I drink a cup of Sleepytime Extra.
http://www.celestialseasonings.com/products/herbal/sleepytime-extra

 

[Terry]

Yup, I got a nice Eljer circa 1951 in my new bathroom. I just love the way it sounds! I don't know why, but since I was a kid, I always stuck around and waited until the bowl empties out. Must be a 4.0 GPF fetish (I actually measured it by filling it with my beer pitcher).

It's using more than that if it has a fill tube into the overflow. We hooked up an old toilet to a fish tank for the cameras and about two gallons went down the drain beyond what it took to flush with.

 

[Jadnashua]

A couple of things come to mind...it wouldn't be all that hard to buy a modern bowl (some are available in older looking styles), and change the flapper in the old tank to an adjustable one that would bring the volume down to a modern toilet's needs. You'd need to find a two-piece toilet so you'd have some way to anchor the pipe from the wall-mounted tank, and that might take some customized hardware, but sounds like you're having problems finding that as it is. This would help also in that you'd probably not have the tank sweating. A tank designed to empty, and refilled with maybe 6-8 gallons of cold water will often get the tank below the dew point. As opposed to a modern tank that uses only part of the tank on each flush, then refills with a much smaller amount, that gets diluted with the room-temperature water, tempering it. It only becomes an issue with sweating if the tank is flushed multiple times in short succession, and can't warm up in between. Having the wall-mounted tank means the flush might even be better than when the normal tank was used because of the addition height, and therefore velocity of the water.

Your example of water used for irrigation of crops or farm use is kind of lame...that water use can benefit hundreds if not thousands of people...using 400% more than necessary to flush an antique toilet benefits only your ego.

 

[lanachurner]

Some people have no appreciation for beauty, or art. They don't understand there is a correlation between pleasing forms, or color or the fineness of a design and ones mood and happiness. They are strictly utilitarian, say form should always follow function and would likely be happy living in some of the hideous residential architecture you see from the from the 1960s in the former Soviet Union. Though their walls are beige or off white , if their Prius starts in winter, their staid, non-descript brown shoes and ties do not not pinch or choke, their TV programs are never interrupted, their paycheck is always on time and their altruistic notions are never challenged they consider themselves satisfied and grind along in life. Untill, i think, they get old and ask themselves; "Is that all there was to life?"
Many of those are the ones who have the egos. They think they have all the answers. Have it all figured out. They think others should also live the same drab way as they do. They gripe out loud and ridicule people who have different values. They try to pass laws to make everyone live according to Their lights, without those superfluities that cost their Mother Earth so dearly.
Ahh they say, if only we would listen. Everyone could be safe and sound, We could all live in efficient high rise apartments, ride light rail, eat the same organic, tasteless foods and pay homage to the all knowing collective. How happy we all would be.
If only they say. If only...
But fortunately we're not there yet and there's still room for a few of us who like pretty things and are willing to pay a bit higher water bill in order to enjoy them.
It may not be what the egotists like. We may even have to hide. But we'll manage to be happy. And we'll have something that the best and brightest of Them will never have.
That something is not a water wasting old toilet but is an appreciation of form, color and fineness in ordinary things.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I drive a big V-8 powered gas guzzling truck, just because I like it.

You save the world Jim, I wish you the best.

 

[WJcandee]

I do feel for the people who lack the availabilty of water. Meanwhile, many of us in areas which are not effected are pumping thousands of gallons a day for irrigation and farm use. Being surrounded by this on a daily basis, I cannot bring myself to worry about how many gallons of water my toilet is using per flush. If I were in a different place that did have shortages, I'm sure that my opinion would quickly change.

Right on. At our Long Island place, there isn't, and hasn't been in recorded history, an actual drought. Not even close. Water is abundant and its availability far exceeds what even 4 million Beverly Hills water-waters could use. It is also priced such that if you are a power-user, you do pay enough to consider the price, but it's totally-cheap for the average user.

Nevertheless, every summer when other places are being media-hounded to conserve, so are the folks in our city. Restrictions on stuff, not wasting, etc., became a big deal. Something the mayor said to me one day explained why: they hadn't fixed two of the three pumps on the water tower, so while there was plenty of water available to the water department, the higher summer usage would, unless restricted, force them to admit that they weren't properly-maintaining the system. But when a private company offered to come in and run it and fix everything, OH NO!! It's a "public good". Private folks BAD. I wonder how long the private company could have gotten away with not fixing the pumps. In our city, it's going on a decade. Disgraceful.

 

[Jadnashua]

Nobody wants to pay the piper, and things degrade. Look at our roads and bridges, disgraceful, and in some cases, are killing people as parts fall off, not counting the cost to car owners (and trucks) for tires, wheels, springs, shocks. Everyone gets in a huff if they want to raise the gas tax on the fed side that hasn't been updated in decades, or the fact that cars are getting more efficient, so putting more wear on the roads while buying less of the fuel that might help. At some point, we all need to cooperate to maximize our resources, whether that's fuel, water, clean air, etc.

 

[Terry]

Here is a 14" rough toilet from the 20's.
Notice that the tank bolts to the wall.

I should have gotten pictures with the tank lid on.

The elbow that connects the tank to the bowl.

 

[WJcandee]

I guess I'm going to have to post a picture of our not-close-coupled toilet from 1927. The EL is much more prominent than the one in Terry's photo. I have put on a new flush handle and such, so it doesn't look "original". I will do it next time I'm out there.

That supply in Terry's photo looks pretty old, but not 1920s, when it probably would have been round. The plastic nuts under the tank are also probably not original. So I guess the owner updated it a few times prior to Terry's visit.

 

[lanachurner]

Terry,
Thanks for the photos. I have never seen a wall hung tank that also sits on the bowl. Must be from an era where they were transitioning from one style to another. IE, wall mount to bowl mount.
You must be showing two different toilets though as the tank in the bottom photos is different than the first photos. From here the bowl on the bottom looks like it could be a 12"rough. The bowls I'm measuring here measure are 5 1/2" from the back of the porcelain where the spud goes in to the closet bolts.
That one looks like it could be less.
Hard to tell from the photos though.
Jadnashua,
I originally asked about finding a 12" RI bowl for a wall mounted tank.
Do you have anything to offer on that subject or do you just use this site to expound upon your favorite moral, social and political theories?
For a guy from NH, (live free or die) you sure don't sound like you've taken your state's motto to heart.