Antique toilet 14" rough in

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WJcandee

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Do you have anything to offer on that subject or do you just use this site to expound upon your favorite moral, social and political theories?

For someone who has been participating in this forum for 5 minutes, you need to throttle that attitude Waaaaaaaay back, Pal.

The whole debate about codes/laws started because Jim was trying to tell you that (a) it was technically illegal and (b) it might not pass inspection. Others thought you might be able to sneak it past your inspector, if you even have one. Jim thinks that saving water, in and of itself, is a good thing, as do many, many people. Just like many people think, with varying levels of extremism, that limiting consumption of fossil fuels is important. A lot of laws in the United States attempt to do that. Cacher Chick points out that she is free to buy, own, and operate a powerful truck because it is her choice to pay for the extra fuel. (Of course, Uncle Sam has forced up the fuel economy of those trucks over the years, so she wouldn't be free to buy a new one that was made to 1968 standards. And it's plain that the intensity of enforcement of laws regulating consumption and pollution of resources varies based on what US society as a whole thinks about it: water-saving laws nudge consumers and manufacturers towards goals, air pollution laws strike with a vengence, as Volkswagen found out when someone there tried to increase performance at the expense of a little more pollution.) This is the kind of discussion that I, for one, enjoy in this forum. Thankfully, this isn't the kind of highly-moderated forum where someone comes in and deletes posts to eliminate "thread drift". Thread drift is fine by me.

Most of us frequent contributors now have a history with each other, and while we might not always agree, and might be occasionally-crabby, most of us basically like and/or respect each other.

Jim is a longtime contributor to the site who has helped literally thousands of people with their questions, whether good questions or stupid questions. He is entitled to his opinions, and to express them here, because this is a COMMUNITY with active members who share their thoughts, even when they may rub some other members the wrong way.

In fact, the whole FORUM rubs a lot of people in the plumbing business the wrong way, because by helping people do the simple things themselves, Terry is -- God forbid -- sharing "secrets" that some in the Brotherhood would rather not see shared, so they can charge $90 labor and $30 in parts to come change a flapper, or, worse, charge to replace a toilet because the homeowner thinks that it is "broken" because the flapper has failed.

You are welcome to disagree with Jim. You are welcome to see if others can help you install your water hog. But keep the obnoxious comments and personal attacks ("For someone from New Hampshire...") to yourself.
 
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lanachurner

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For someone who has been participating in this forum for 5 minutes, you need to throttle that attitude Waaaaaaaay back, Pal.

The whole debate about codes/laws started because Jim was trying to tell you that (a) it was technically illegal and (b) it might not pass inspection. Others thought you might be able to sneak it past your inspector, if you even have one. Jim thinks that saving water, in and of itself, is a good thing, as do many, many people. Just like many people think, with varying levels of extremism, that limiting consumption of fossil fuels is important. A lot of laws in the United States attempt to do that. Cacher Chick points out that she is free to buy, own, and operate a powerful truck because it is her choice to pay for the extra fuel. (Of course, Uncle Sam has forced up the fuel economy of those trucks over the years, so she wouldn't be free to buy a new one that was made to 1968 standards.) This is the kind of discussion that I, for one, enjoy in this forum.

Most of us frequent contributors now have a history with each other, and while we might not always agree, and might be occasionally-crabby, most of us basically like and/or respect each other.

Jim is a longtime contributor to the site who has helped literally thousands of people with their questions, whether good questions or stupid questions. He is entitled to his opinions, and to express them here, because this is a COMMUNITY with active members who share their thoughts, even when they may rub some other members the wrong way.

In fact, the whole FORUM rubs a lot of people in the plumbing business the wrong way, because by helping people do the simple things themselves, Terry is -- God forbid -- sharing "secrets" that some in the Brotherhood would rather not see shared, so they can charge $90 labor and $30 in parts to come change a flapper, or, worse, charge to replace a toilet because the homeowner thinks that it is "broken" because the flapper has failed.

You are welcome to disagree with Jim. You are welcome to see if others can help you install your water hog. But keep the obnoxious comments and personal attacks ("For someone from New Hampshire...") to yourself.


I am now curious.
If I ask another question about toilets will the old timers here be entitled to teach me about other social and moral things?
Maybe weigh in on BGH in our milk, vaccination, fracking, the gun debate, free trade, immigration, global warming or who to vote for in this election?
I just want to know so I know how to act here.
As I mentioned before, I have been around forums for a long time and I have learned that it's usually better to not try to inject my own politics into a discussion about say, old tractors.
If a fellow asks about his tractor engine, he's likely not receptive to having the thread digress into a discussion about roads, bridges, conservation of resources, the gas tax or raparian rights in Utah.
I do understand how easy it is to get a thread to go way off topic and sometimes we old timers need to be reminded to pause, step back and just answer the question and not give the thread an entirely new focus.
Anyway, I am thankful to this board for the info I have gotten about old toilets. But I must say I could have gotten by just fine without the lectures about my water usage.
If it helps, I only shower about 3 times per week, only wash dishes when the sink is full and never water my lawn.
 

Reach4

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You are welcome to disagree with Jim. You are welcome to see if others can help you install your water hog. But keep the obnoxious comments and personal attacks ("For someone from New Hampshire...") to yourself.
You might want to review the thread.
 

Terry

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In fact, the whole FORUM rubs a lot of people in the plumbing business the wrong way, because by helping people do the simple things themselves, Terry is -- God forbid -- sharing "secrets" that some in the Brotherhood would rather not see shared, so they can charge $90 labor and $30 in parts to come change a flapper, or, worse, charge to replace a toilet because the homeowner thinks that it is "broken" because the flapper has failed.

I got in trouble in a Facebook group for plumbers on Sunday when I mentioned something that my son and I do when installing toilets. I thought is was a simple little tip that other plumbers could use.

We don't cut closet bolts anyway. Buy the brass sets that come with four nuts and washers, snug them to the closet flange first, and then if they need to be shorter, take pliers and bending back and forth, they snap off at the top of the nut. Done! :)

Now keep in mind that Jamie and I have been doing this for years, the bolts snap off clean and the nuts can come on and off easily. We have found it much better than sawing the bolts. But then Jamie and I maybe have a good technique for this.

And how many flanges do you end up replacing using this technique? Michael C.

From the service guy behind you..

I am the service guy. My hands must be stronger than yours. Terry Love

Let's see a video of this. Michael C.

I love removing nuts from stripped or bent Johnnie bolts....said no plumber ever! Will S.

I do..I get to charge more. Nothing a pair of pliers and my multi tool can't fix! Jack M.

Shup Will S.
Breaking off the excess closet bolt with a pliers is just dumb. And hack.
I can't believe people actually take your advice. Michael C.

If you worked with me you would learn a lot. Just saying. Terry Love

It's funny to hear that you have trouble with a basic toilet installation. It's not hack if it's perfect every time. The bolt snaps off clean and is reusable. It's perfect. But like I said you do need strong hands for this. Terry Love

I see this getting interesting....I have a vicious grip on me, 6ft7 290 and stronger than most, and I'd never break johneys with pliars, that's just lazy hackwork Jimmie B.

Anyway, looks like a video is in my future to show how this is done. For Jamie and I we have found it to be a much cleaner way of doing it. Though for most I still agree that sawing them off would be better. I guy that is as large as Jimmie might have a hard time with small motor skills.

Most of the guys on that site are in their 20's and are new to plumbing. Eventually, the things that are taught on this site become industry standard, and the young guys don't even know why.

As far as water usage goes, if you're in a place that has water, why not use it. Most of our comments about water are to give answers that work anyplace, anytime. That's one reason I like to know where the posters are from. I give different answers for Florida than I do Minnesota. One is warm, one is cold. That changes things a lot.
Sometimes I hear from other posters that they can do certain things with their inspector, which is fine. But when I have someone asking a basic code question, I like to give them information that will please "any" inspector. It's a waste of your time I green light something that if inspected would be turned down. Sometimes we do let you know, that it will work, just don't have it looked at. :)

This site over the last 365 days
Users: 5,890,051
Pages: 10.103.844

That puts us in 4.7% of households in the US.
 

Jadnashua

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I don't know what the bowl looks like with the tank off, but on some, it is smooth with the two bolt holes and the water flush inlet, but you could look at their cad drawings (if you have a viewer) and see, but in an older style toilet, from Toto, you could look at these three:

http://www.totousa.com/eco-clayton®-two-piece-toilet-128-gpf-elongated-bowl
TOTO Clayton CST784SF
https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst424sf.pdf
http://assets.totousa.com/product-files/SS-00357_CST754EFN.pdf

You'd have to fabricate a bracket, probably using the tank mounting holes, to hold the downpipe from the wall mounted tank into the toilet, but it would go straight down, verses in from the back.

It's not hard to adjust the water outlet from a tank to meet modern requirements and it should work fine with a bowl designed to work with it often, just by replacing the flapper valve. Replacing the fill valve would allow you to get the balance of tank/bowl refill volumes, but those two parts are probably less than $20 retail. Toto retail prices are often discounted, often by a fair amount, and prices listed are for both the bowl and the tank, so should be lower yet.

I do not think using a flushometer type bowl would work, but it may. Those bowls, though, probably don't have the style you want.
 
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Terry

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wc-14-hoit.jpg


I pull this one next week for a TOTO Vespin II with 14" Unifit.
 

lanachurner

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I got in trouble in a Facebook group for plumbers on Sunday when I mentioned something that my son and I do when installing toilets. I thought is was a simple little tip that other plumbers could use.

We don't cut closet bolts anyway. Buy the brass sets that come with four nuts and washers, snug them to the closet flange first, and then if they need to be shorter, take pliers and bending back and forth, they snap off at the top of the nut. Done! :)

Now keep in mind that Jamie and I have been doing this for years, the bolts snap off clean and the nuts can come on and off easily. We have found it much better than sawing the bolts. But then Jamie and I maybe have a good technique for this.

And how many flanges do you end up replacing using this technique? Michael C.

From the service guy behind you..

I am the service guy. My hands must be stronger than yours. Terry Love

Let's see a video of this. Michael C.

I love removing nuts from stripped or bent Johnnie bolts....said no plumber ever! Will S.

I do..I get to charge more. Nothing a pair of pliers and my multi tool can't fix! Jack M.

Shup Will S.
Breaking off the excess closet bolt with a pliers is just dumb. And hack.
I can't believe people actually take your advice. Michael C.



If you worked with me you would learn a lot. Just saying. Terry Love

It's funny to hear that you have trouble with a basic toilet installation. It's not hack if it's perfect every time. The bolt snaps off clean and is reusable. It's perfect. But like I said you do need strong hands for this. Terry Love

I see this getting interesting....I have a vicious grip on me, 6ft7 290 and stronger than most, and I'd never break johneys with pliars, that's just lazy hackwork Jimmie B.

Anyway, looks like a video is in my future to show how this is done. For Jamie and I we have found it to be a much cleaner way of doing it. Though for most I still agree that sawing them off would be better. I guy that is as large as Jimmie might have a hard time with small motor skills.

Most of the guys on that site are in their 20's and are new to plumbing. Eventually, the things that are taught on this site become industry standard, and the young guys don't even know why.

As far as water usage goes, if you're in a place that has water, why not use it. Most of our comments about water are to give answers that work anyplace, anytime. That's one reason I like to know where the posters are from. I give different answers for Florida than I do Minnesota. One is warm, one is cold. That changes things a lot.
Sometimes I hear from other posters that they can do certain things with their inspector, which is fine. But when I have someone asking a basic code question, I like to give them information that will please "any" inspector. It's a waste of your time I green light something that if inspected would be turned down. Sometimes we do let you know, that it will work, just don't have it looked at. :)

This site over the last 365 days
Users: 5,890,051
Pages: 10.103.844

That puts us in 4.7% of households in the US.


Thank you Terry. I am pleased to see there is some allowance here for people who have an appreciation for old fixtures.
But I also understand you recommending just pulling and junking them. It's the world we live in. I'm sad to see them all go though. They are fine old pieces of porcelain.
Are you talking about the toilet bolts that are machined so they snap off? If so I'm surprised that anyone wouldn't know they are made for that purpose.
 

Jadnashua

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In Washington, where Terry lives and works, Washington law says the following:

" No individual, public or private corporation, firm, political subdivision, government agency, or other legal entity may, for purposes of use in this state, distribute, sell, offer for sale, import, install, or approve for installation any plumbing fixtures unless the fixtures meet the standards as provided for in this section."

IOW, it is illegal to do what you want where he lives, and other places in the country.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=19.27.170

West of the mountains, that part of Washington state is a temperate rain forest (different story east of the mountains, though), so no water shortages very often.
 

Terry

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Hey Jim,
I'm West of the Cascades, and we do have water issues some Summers. However, I'm not knocking someone else having water to use.
I like my showers. Just don't let anyone know.

I will post a video of the bolt snapping. I wouldn't do it unless the flange is good, and it's been secured to flange with nut and washer, with a "brass" bolt. The coated steel closet bolts would never snap.
 

lanachurner

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I don't know what the bowl looks like with the tank off, but on some, it is smooth with the two bolt holes and the water flush inlet, but you could look at their cad drawings (if you have a viewer) and see, but in an older style toilet, from Toto, you could look at these :
https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst424sf.pdf

You'd have to fabricate a bracket, probably using the tank mounting holes, to hold the downpipe from the wall mounted tank into the toilet, but it would go straight down, verses in from the back.

It's not hard to adjust the water outlet from a tank to meet modern requirements and it should work fine with a bowl designed to work with it often, just by replacing the flapper valve. Replacing the fill valve would allow you to get the balance of tank/bowl refill volumes, but those two parts are probably less than $20 retail. Toto retail prices are often discounted, often by a fair amount, and prices listed are for both the bowl and the tank, so should be lower yet.

I do not think using a flushometer type bowl would work, but it may. Those bowls, though, probably don't have the style you want.

jadnashua,
Is this more of your insisting I use a low flush toilet?
Or is it an attempt to exasperate me till I flare up and speak ill of you?
So maybe you can banish me from these forums? So that your opinion will be the only one?
It wont work jadnashua. I won't be trolled or provoked.
You may have many, many posts here. You may have helped thousands.
But I think you've been very rude.
I'm surprised you dismiss my point of view so entirely.
That none of my prior posts have had any value in your eyes.
That you so vehemently insist that my business is yours.
I assume this forum has an ignore function. If you continue this I will find it and use it.
My water use is not your business.
Now please leave this alone.
 
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Jadnashua

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Moving from passive aggressive to haranguing sermons.
Given some have said there is no law against doing this, I'm just pointing out the reality...it applies some places, not everywhere, as I posted in a previous reply.
 

Jadnashua

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jadnashua,
Is this more of your insisting I use a low flush toilet?
Or is it an attempt to exasperate me till I flare up and speak ill of you?
So maybe you can banish me from these forums? So that your opinion will be the only one?
It wont work jadnashua. I won't be trolled or provoked.
You may have many, many posts here. You may have helped thousands.
But I think you've been very rude.
I'm surprised you dismiss my point of view so entirely.
That none of my prior posts have had any value in your eyes.
That you so vehemently insist that my business is yours.
I assume this forum has an ignore function. If you continue this I will find it and use it.
My water use is not your business.
Now please leave this alone.
You said you had looked at using a new bowl with the old tank...all I did was pick three that have an old-time style that might work for you. You did say:
[QUOTE/]
Jadnashua,
I originally asked about finding a 12" RI bowl for a wall mounted tank.
Do you have anything to offer on that subject or do you just use this site to expound upon your favorite moral, social and political theories?
For a guy from NH, (live free or die) you sure don't sound like you've taken your state's motto to heart.[/QUOTE]
If you choose to continue on your path, fine. There are alternatives, or you can continue on your current path. Your choice. The reality is, though, in a large portion of the population in the USA, that you CAN'T do what you want, so someone reading this and not knowing that, could be lead down a path that will end up costing them. If this helps them, good. We don't have a water guzzler tax law on toilets like we do on inefficient, high-performance cars, but some places just outlaw water guzzlers entirely.

If you view this as rude, sorry. That is not the intent, but being blunt was.
 

Jadnashua

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That did not happen. Were you imbibing alcohol when you dreamed up your straw man? Did you know that is illegal in some places?:rolleyes:

catcher_chick said this on page one of the posts:
"There is nothing in our plumbing code which prevents the re-use of old fixtures. You should post some legitimate evidence which supports this idea."

Read this, http://www.ncsl.org/research/enviro...ter-efficient-plumbing-fixtures635433474.aspx follow the links to the involved states that specifically prohibit the reuse, sale, installation of items that do not meet current federal guidelines. You can repair one in place, but you cannot trade, sell, or install one during new construction or remodel. I quoted this from the Washington state official government website " No individual, public or private corporation, firm, political subdivision, government agency, or other legal entity may, for purposes of use in this state, distribute, sell, offer for sale, import, install, or approve for installation any plumbing fixtures unless the fixtures meet the standards as provided for in this section." (the link to the whole thing is there in that post if you care to verify it), which is one state that follows this rule among a bunch of others. If you count the population in those states: CA, NY, TX, and others, a very high percentage of the population in the USA cannot either, and the plumbing inspector would not be upholding his job description if he allowed it. Maybe not specifically plumbing code, but the enforcement lies there since he is the one with eyes on the properties involved.

I did make an error in that I thought the Federal guidelines applied everywhere for this during new construction or a remodel, but on the federal side only applies to manufacturing them (for now, that may change), but there are, as I've said before, a lot of places where it IS illegal to install one, and that is fact. So, maybe you should get your facts straight.
 

lanachurner

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"You said you had looked at using a new bowl with the old tank...all I did was pick three that have an old-time style that might work for you."


Mr. Jadnashua,
Nowhere did I mention, say or even imply I was interested in using a new bowl. From the beginning I have spoken about using an Antique toilet and have argued for nothing else.
Perhaps it is your own peculiar fixation on saving water and following the laws that caused you to misinterpret what I wrote.
So I will try to be very clear here:
I intend to use an Antique toilet in my bathroom because I like the way they look. My rough in is set at 12".
The bowl I have is designed for a 14" rough in. I do not wish to mount my tank high on the wall. I want it "normal" height.
From other kind folks here I have learned I need to: Find a different Antique toilet, find a different Antique bowl, devise a different (but attractive) flush el or change my rough in to fit the Antique bowl I have.
I am not interested in further discussions about the legality of what I am doing nor am I in the least concerned about water usage.
Within that set of parameters, do you have any advice for me?
 

Jadnashua

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Seriously consider plumbing in a tempering valve for your supply, as it is very likely that at least in the summer, the thing would otherwise sweat heavily. If not needed, you can adjust it to all cold verses room temp. Probably a lot more expensive to do when you start to get mold and water on the floor and behind the tank after the fact.

FWIW, the quotes in my previous message are taken directly from one of your posts...it could be easily interpreted as I did.
 
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lanachurner

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Seriously consider plumbing in a tempering valve for your supply, as it is very likely that at least in the summer, the thing would otherwise sweat heavily. If not needed, you can adjust it to all cold verses room temp. Probably a lot more expensive to do when you start to get mold and water on the floor and behind the tank after the fact.

FWIW, the quotes in my previous message are taken directly from one of your posts...it could be easily interpreted as I did.


Thanks for the simple, non hectoring reply.
I am not much of a fan of tempering valves. Have removed a few of them when I remodeled. As often as not they are all limed up and can't be adjusted anymore. So usually they are adding warm water year round which is kind of a waste.
Also, unless they are installed in an unfinished basement where they can be accessed remotely they add more pipes and plumbing around the toilet and just add more clutter there.
And on the new 1.6 gpf toilets unless you set it to run nearly full hot, there usually isn't enough of flow/volume to get the water warmed up before the toilet tank is refilled.
So I'm not a fan of them.
If it helps, this toilet project is in our own family bath. With master and half baths in the house it won't get used that frequently so neither the water consumption nor the need for tempering is a big deal.
Btw,
I am sorry for the cross words in this thread. Not the best way to start out on a new to me forum that shows some promise. I always try to assume that an informed individual knows what is best for themselves better than a federal mandate that is one size fits all. The keyword there is informed. I know most people aren't well informed about plumbing.
By way of introduction, I am not a complete novice at this. Having remodeled upwards of 200 bathrooms in the last 25 years I flatter myself in thinking I know a little about them. More than just the carpentry, tile, sheetrock, paint, electrical, pouring shower basins, various kinds of heating and of course plumbing. There's also ergonomics, design, efficient use of space and those very important aesthetic aspects; style, color, lighting and texture. There's not a good way to say this but I think it's a good thing to be able to pee in a beautiful, artful place.
I sure don't know it all though which is why I subscribed here in the first place.
I do think I have something to contribute though and may drop in now and then - if - we can do away with some of the rancor...
Meanwhile,
Thanks to all for your replies.
 

Plumbs Away

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Welcome, lanachurner. Just so I'm absolutely clear, are you absolutely certain you wouldn't prefer a Toto Ultramax II with a 1.0 GPF???:D:p
 

Jadnashua

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My guess is that he never looked at the Totos I linked that have an old-time style to them, but work with modern efficiency...IMHO, best of both worlds, the looks and the economy. Flush that 6-gallons or so then take a hot shower, and the thing will be dripping wet from the cold water to fil it.
 
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