Antique toilet 14" rough in

[lanachurner]

Last summer I bought a beautiful antique toilet to install in our new bathroom.
It is the 2 piece type where the bowl bolts to the floor, the tank bolts to the wall and they are connected by means of a chrome flush ell.
The closet flange in our bathroom is set at a 12" rough in.
But I can not install the toilet because the back of the bowl is too close to the tank. The compression fitting on the back of the bowl that secures the flush ell would be right in the bend. Ain't gonna happen.
Now I do understand there are three common rough in dimensions - 10", 12" and 14" with 12" being by far the most common.
I'm assuming this bowl is made for a 14" rough in.
On a modern toilet it is easy to measure the rough in dimension. Just stand a stick behind the tank and measure to the closet bolts. EZ.
I am thinking I will need to find a different bowl with the correct rough in.
How/where do I measure an antique bowl to determine the rough in? I suppose this is about as clear as mud but I can answer questions if need be. I would appreciate any help

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Thanks for joining and posting the forums.

With many new members looking for advice and answers, be reminded that good photos and illustrations always invite an audience that can give faster replies that are less generalized and more suited to your exact needs.

Try to provide at least two photos. Include a closeup of the attention area so we can identify fine details, and include one zoomed out so we can see the rest of the room and things nearby, adjacent areas, floors underneath. Use a black marker to write on blue painter's tape or bright colored Post-It's to mark areas of interest, there is no need to modify your photos with fancy text overlays. Take as many photos as you can, choose the best ones that are clear.

Do include diagrams for plumbing and supply line projects. A scan or photo of a hand drawn illustration done quick on paper is usually easier for most to create than trying to make one in a computer app. We don't need architect schematics, just something simple to help us understand your project.

Make sure your location is in your member profile, this tells us where you are so other members here with experience in your area may give you specific recommendations that may apply to your seasonal weather conditions and state code.

While waiting for replies, please make some effort and take the opportunity to search these forums extensively, it is likely that many in the past had your similar issue, and you may find solved solutions quicker than the many days it can sometimes take for you to get answers you want.

As you solve your problem to finish, kindly please follow up on this same thread you created and update your progress, so future members with your same problem can see that this may also be used to help them.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Leon82]

My aunt has a similar setup in the landing for the basement stairs. the tank however is 4 or 5 feet above the bowl

Depending on what the DWV plumbing is made from, I have seen offset pvc flanges.

 

[Smooky]

As standardair says a picture of your tank, bowl and connection pipe might help. You could set it up to show the problem you have. There are a lot of different shapes and configurations of vintage toilets it's hard to make sugestions if we don't understand what you are dealing with.
Maybe a different flush elbow would help:

http://deabath.com/Toilets_and_Toil...alves/Flush_Levers/Flush_Ells/flush_ells.html

A few examples:
http://vintagebathroom.com/bathroom-fixtures/toilets/

 

[hj]

If the closet spud is that far to the rear, it is a 14" bowl and you need a 12" one, but good luck finding one of those these days.

 

[Jadnashua]

A plumbing inspector would have real problems with you installing a toilet that is not compliant with the current Federal regulations. Unless the house is on the registry, it should never pass a code inspection. While you can repair an existing installation, anything new must comply with the current codes, and an ancient toilet like that certainly would not.

 

[lanachurner]

Thanks for the replies folks.
I know they make an offset flush pipe but that would raise the height of the tank. I want it "normal" height.
I remodel high end bathrooms for a living but this one is in my own home so I have to do this right.
I could open the ceiling in the kitchen and move the flange out 2".
That's a lot of monkeying around though - move the flange, fix the new tile in the bathroom, patch the ceiling, etc.
Getting back to my original question: Does anyone know how/where to measure the rough in dimension on one of these old bowls? I may just keep searching for the right bowl.

 

[hj]

There is NO "right" answer. The end of the spud should be about 6" to the rear of the bolt holes. That gives you 3" from the wall to the center of the tank and 3" end to center for the flush ell.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

A plumbing inspector would have real problems with you installing a toilet that is not compliant with the current Federal regulations. Unless the house is on the registry, it should never pass a code inspection. While you can repair an existing installation, anything new must comply with the current codes, and an ancient toilet like that certainly would not.

That's funny.
There is nothing in our plumbing code which prevents the re-use of old fixtures. You should post some legitimate evidence which supports this idea.

 

[lanachurner]

There is NO "right" answer. The end of the spud should be about 6" to the rear of the bolt holes. That gives you 3" from the wall to the center of the tank and 3" end to center for the flush ell.

Yeah, I had kinda figured it out.
That sounds about right.
This bowl measures about 5 1/2" from the back end of the porcelain where the spud goes in to the bolt holes for the closet flange. So to have a 12" rough in bowl it would need to be about 3 1/2"

 

[lanachurner]

That's funny.
There is nothing in our plumbing code which prevents the re-use of old fixtures. You should post some legitimate evidence which supports this idea.

We have similar codes here that require low flush. In our half bath I put a salmon color sink, toilet, TP holder, town bars, etc that I salvaged from a remodel.
But to pass final inspection I installed a used low flush toilet then changed it out after inspection.
Same with the master bath I'm trying to put this old toilet in.
Been using a compliant toilet for a couple of years now.

 

[Terry]

The tanks that mount on the wall, think back to the 1920's, were meant for a 14" rough.
It looks like you will be moving the rough-in at the floor if you want to use that.
I pull those out all the time and land fill them.

 

[Jadnashua]

The Energy Policy Act of 1992, which became law in 1994, mandates a maximum flush volume of 1.6 gallons for toilets manufactured and installed after this date. Modern toilets that use even less water than this may be certified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's WaterSense Program.

You're installing a toilet...therefore, it must abide by these requirements. While you can repair an existing one, you cannot install an old one that does not meet these regulations. A plumbing inspector should fail the install. Now, whether he will or not, is another issue altogether.

 

[Reach4]

You're installing a toilet...therefore, it must abide by these requirements. While you can repair an existing one, you cannot install an old one that does not meet these regulations.

Did you make that up yourself? You make it sound authoritative.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

The Energy Policy Act of 1992, which became law in 1994, mandates a maximum flush volume of 1.6 gallons for toilets manufactured and installed after this date. Modern toilets that use even less water than this may be certified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's WaterSense Program.

You're installing a toilet...therefore, it must abide by these requirements. While you can repair an existing one, you cannot install an old one that does not meet these regulations. A plumbing inspector should fail the install. Now, whether he will or not, is another issue altogether.

A municipal plumbing inspector has no duty to do anything, beyond that of enforcing the plumbing code which is applicable in his or her jurisdiction. A toilet replacement is not even something that requires a permit or inspection, and I can say with a great deal of certainty than the EPA is not preventing anyone from reusing old plumbing fixtures. Your intentions might be good for the most part Jim, but sometimes you are just blowing smoke.

 

[hj]

Originally the law said they could NOT manufacture non-compliant toilets, but they could be sold and installed if they had any.

 

[Jadnashua]

It depends on where you live, but if you happen to live in CA, read this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/23/low-flow-toilets-required_n_3800061.html
In MA, any new or remodeling bathroom MUST include an approved, l0w-flow toilet. You need to check your local codes...you might be surprised.

Given that often 30% or more of the water use in a home comes from flushing a toilet, it really is anti-social to use an antique that could use 6g or more per flush, and it may just get you into trouble installing one. Check with your local building department.

 

[hj]

quote; The tanks that mount on the wall, think back to the 1920's, were meant for a 14" rough.

Actually, they made bowls for 10, 12, 14, and 18" roughs. (I do not remember if it was the 10" or the 18" ones that had a nickname which would NOT be "politically correct" these days).

 

[Terry]

In Seattle I've only seen the 14" bowls with wall mount tanks.
However, much of that depends on if you could get the tubing for the longer extension to the 18" location. I would think much easier than to shorten it to 10".

 

[hj]

The flush ells were the same. The outlet on the bowls shiffted to make the rough correct. 18" bowls had the outlet about in the center of the bowl, while 10 ones actually had it behind the bowl.