Well liner question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Oregon Incognito, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    That is a 3-wire motor, so you will need 3 wires+ground between the control box and the pump.

    If you wanted to make a flow inducer, you would probably use solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056

    You would want construction which did not have worm gear clamps over the body of the pump assembly, because that would increase the diameter. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/idea-for-flow-inducer-construction.86907/ proposes a construction where the clamp pinches the pipe above the pump to not increase the overall OD.
     
  2. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Reach4,

    It's 2 wires plus a ground, so no controller. Originally I was going to put the pump a little deeper in the PVC perforations. The plan is to set it above the perforations so I'm going to skip the flow inducer.

    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  3. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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  4. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Sorry for any confusion. I went back and edited the pump number and removed the drawing. Directly off my pump, it says: MS402 PROD # 79952104. The motor has 3 wires coming out of it, 2 black and 1 green.

    Steve
     
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    http://net.grundfos.com/Appl/ccmsservices/public/literature/filedata/Grundfosliterature-5840206.pdf
    page 85 says to use a 25 amp breaker if using "Std." type, and you can use a 12 amp with a delay breaker. If you use a 25 amp breaker, NEC says you need 10 awg, at least indoors. So if you want to run a 15 amp breaker with 14 awg wire, you have to make sure it is a delay breaker. I think your search for that would start with identifying the kind of breakers your panel uses. I just looked for my QP breakers, and I don't know if there is delay trip version.

    When you run wires to a pump with a pressure switch away from the house, you want to think if you would like to power other loads nearby. In that case, you could consider a subpanel that could power the pump plus outlets, lights, or whatever, while you are burying wires anyway. If your pressure switch is in the house, this would probably not apply.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
  6. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    If you use a 25 amp breaker, NEC says you need 10 awg, at least indoors.

    WRONG

    Motor breaker sizes are calculated differently NEC article 430 allows up to a 45 amp breaker on #14 wire
     
    Reach4 likes this.
  7. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Back on my prior post #60 does my wire size calculation seem correct? So what size breaker then? Everything is located outdoors. Ran this by my electrician friend and he is freaking out about the voltage drop. He wants to use #10 in the well and #8 in the trench. Why is the NEC so different than the pump manufacturers for wire sizing?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Everything is outdoors including your main breaker panel?

    Is your electrician friend using nameplate current (about 10 amps) as the load for his calculations, or is he using a 25 amp breaker size?

    You might ask about a delay breaker vs a standard breaker. Remember that the maker says a 15 amp delay breaker would be good. I know the breakers commonly offered have two trip methods -- a fast magnetic method, and a slower thermal method. Does that make those delay breakers, or are delay breakers a special thing?
     
  9. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Yes, 100% outdoors. He used the 9.8amps from the nameplate.

    This is what I found reading on the internet as to why the smaller wire is used:

    Valveman(page 2, post#26)- "Using the longest length of the smallest wire possible will work like a reduced voltage soft starter, so you don't want to oversize wire."

    Mike Holt Electrical Forum- "Sizing of the wire can be useful in limiting the startup torque exerted on a drop pipe with a submersible. Voltage drop is not always a bad thing."


    Steve
     
  10. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    The NEC Code for wire sizing does not take voltage drop for length of wire into account. It is up to the electrician to do those calculations for a maximum of 3 or 5% voltage drop. It has to be calculated separately. The wire sizing charts from the pump manufacturers take voltage drop into account. That is why their charts will say for a certain hp pump this size wire is ok for this length. Another size wire is good for a different length.
     
  11. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I ran some ballpark numbers. Is there any bonus for the motor being marked 230V and the nominal AC being 240V?

    Using 65C resistance numbers from https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/copper-wire-d_1429.html
    Assuming 320 ft pair of same size wire, 10 amps

    AWG V drop % of 240 V
    14 19.008 7.92%
    12 11.968 4.99%
    10 07.552 3.15%
    #8 04.730 1.97%
     
  12. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    20200627_160745.jpg Found this void about 30 inches from the ground. It is about 8 inches deep. Do I fill it with bentonite chips?

    I have a concrete vault(4'X6') that will be buried for the pressure tank and other components. How far away do I need to be from the well casing? Any code on this?

    Lastly, does the pitless adaptor and the rest of the exposed casing get encased with bentonite chips? Filter fabric to separate the chips from the backfill dirt?

    Thanks!
    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  13. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Yes,fill that hole with bentonite chips. Looks like a nice hydrated surface seal otherwise.And yes technically the surface seal is supposed to be restored. About have to "slip form" it.

    I'm not aware of any code on distance from the well to your vault. Is it traffic rated? Probably don't want to put it where a pump truck would have to drive on it to access the well.
     
  14. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    If the surface seal is hydrated like yours, I have dug beside the casing and left the bentonite seal intact. Then I just tunnel over the few inches right where im installing the pitless adapter.
     
  15. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    I'm pretty sure it's weight rated. I'll call the manufacture and find out. It's designed for electrical utilities. Since it's 4'X6' on top I would guess trucks could straddle it? Either way there is enough room to avoid it. I'll put it about 3' away from the well just in case I need to service the pitless adapter in the future.

    Thanks,
    Steve

    20200628_103814.jpg 20200628_103535.jpg
     
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are saying that you will make sure the spacing is big enough to allow digging around the casing without interfering.

    Functionally, 30 ft away would be as good, but you want to keep the yard disruptions concentrated.

    How big is your casing? I have an Merrill SMCK pitless on 4 inch steel. The option would have been to have a 5 inch casing assembly built to be welded atop the 4 inch steel casing. That would have permitted the use of a trapezoidal pitless instead of the clearway pitless.
     
  17. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Domestic wells in the Pacific Northwest are normally 6 5/6” steel casing. 2”, 4” and 5” wells are an Eastern and Midwest Phenomenon. Air rotary rigs here use 4 1/2” OD drill rod and drill 6” or larger. A 4” or 4 1/2” ID liner can then be installed after drilling is completed, if needed.
     
  18. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    It looks to me as if 2 inch are mostly in the south, except some areas of WI using sand points. Not that there are not exceptions. I wish mine were 5.
     
  19. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Yes, mine is 6-5/8" diameter.

    Boycedrilling- When I "slip form" the dirt/bentonite should the pitless adapter be surrounded in bentonite too? No need to replace the mortar? I still scratching my head as to how they installed a thin layer of mortar, then bentonite on the outside. Do the well drillers sleeve it?

    Valveman- Since I have plenty of room in the pit should I use a 10, 15, or 20 gallon pressure tank? You mentioned at least 10 gallons.
    With the PK1A kit what else do I need in the vault? I will use unions in case I need to remove anything. Do I need a ball valve anywhere? Put in an extra "T" for anything?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  20. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    The 4.5 gallon tank is plenty. But the 10 gallon tank won't hurt anything. The 20 gallon would just take up a lot of room in the vault. A tee for a hose bibb and then a ball valve after the kit will let you check everything from the vault when working on things.
     
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