Another old, Low yield well.

[Zoomschwortz]

I have a 65', 1.25 gpm, 6" cased well that has no records, but is believed to be 50-60- ? years old.
The surface of the water in casing varies greatly depending on season and amount of rain (Well Driller believes that this well was dug long before requirements of sealing well from ground water). I have seen it 6' to 20' from ground level.
I installed a Lowes or Home Depot submersible pump over 20 years ago and it now struggles to get 60psi and is ready for a change, so now will be the time to try and increase the gpm if it is possible and feasible.

I have a new above ground 3,000 gallon water tank that I am getting ready to add to my system, so that I can collect water from the low gpm well, but still be able to get 20-25 gpm for the house, yard and garden.

Before I start digging ditches, pouring concrete and setting up metal build to cover 3,000 gallon tank, that would greatly restrict future access for drilling equipment, I thought it would be best to ask some questions about possibly improving my gpm.

For a little less than $1,000, I can have my well brushed and bailed.
What, if any, are the chances that this would increase my gpm?

Around 30 years ago, I asked a well driller about drilling this well deeper, but he was against trying it because he felt the chance of the casing collapsing and losing his equipment was too great.

Just thought of this today. Is it possible to run a 4" casing inside my old 6" casing and drill this existing well deeper without risking the loss of the drillers equipment?
All of my neighbors have wells in the 120' range and they are getting much higher gpm and never run their wells dry no matter how much they are watering their yards and gardens.

I would really like to just drill a whole new well, but the County I live in does not like the idea of new wells and a few Well Drillers told me that I would need to tell the County that my well runs dry and stays dry for long periods of time. It wouldn't take long for the County to figure out that it doesn't stay dry for long periods of time.

Besides wanting more water per gallon for my use, if I ever decide to sell my home, it may be hard for any potential Buyers to get a loan with such a low gpm. My daughter bought a home in an adjacent County and the Mortgage Company made a fuss about her well only getting 15 gpm.

Thank you in advance for any help or information you can give.
Ken

 

[Valveman]

Brushing and bailing is probably a good idea. It is hard if not impossible to drill and old well deeper in many cases. Usually best to move over a bit. I think the county should consider 1.25 GPM as a dry well. However, that is almost 2,000 gallons a day if you have a cistern for storage.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Zoomschwortz]

Brushing and bailing is probably a good idea. It is hard if not impossible to drill and old well deeper in many cases. Usually best to move over a ways. I think the county should consider 1.25 GPM as a dry well. However, that is almost 2,000 gallons a day if you have a cistern for storage.View attachment 94280

Thank you Cary,
Unfortunately I live in a county that does have written rules, but prefers to make their own, unwritten, tougher rules on a whim. Example written, no building in 100 year flood zone, but you can build in a 500 year flood zone. Unwritten, "We will not let you build in a 500 year flood zone because Al Gore is going to get elected" and "we will make everyone in 500 year zones remove their homes and buildings". They actually told me this.

We had a "500 year" flood of a small creek that came 15 feet onto my property and surrounded my pump house, but got nowhere near my house or location for planned shop building site. After nearly 2 years of dealing with the county, they finally agreed to a car port, with "no walls, because walls would impede the travel of salmon". They actually said walls would impede the travel of salmon.
We are talking a large drainage ditch that they call a creek, that is bone dry at least 4 months out of the year. Salmon are now in the rivers and streams and this creek is dry. There are no salmon, there has never been any salmon, but in 30 years I have seen a handful of trout trapped in some pools as the water receded.

In order to build a carport, I had to remove around 12" of crushed rock from my driveway, down to dirt and then put in 3" of crushed rock. I was also told that I would need to install a concrete culvert at the road under my driveway before construction could begin. I told the county person on the phone that my driveway already had a concrete culvert and his response was "No You Don't" we argued about whether or not I had a culvert for a few minutes and then he demanded to know who illegally installed my culvert. When I told him that the county had installed mine and my neighbors culvert 5 or 6 years before, he then said that he would wave the requirement for me to have a culvert. I'm happy that he didn't make me remove it.

Dealing with our county is an exercise in patience, alternate reality and trying to hit a moving target that can change directions without a moments notice for no rational reason.

In your experience, on average, what is the average gpm increase after brush and bail?
Would you guess the chances of jumping to 5 gpm in the area of slim to none?

Thanks again
Ken

 

[Randy in Iowa]

Hey Ken, I can't answer either of your questions but wanted to let you know I saw them at least. Nobody has paid any attention to answering my questions for whatever reasons they have. Maybe this site just isn't very active anymore. IDK, I'm trying to not take it personally or give up.

That county sounds like you need a permanent vacation from it. I'm luck insofar as I live in a county that has few rules (or rules that I am aware of anyway, lived here 35 years regardless). I can do my own electrical work, my own plumbing (why I'm here on this site), and my own building construction (although with this I would try and see at what point what I'm doing might become illegal or if necessary permits/possible inspections be required).

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for the delay. Trying to be mostly retired these days and I loose track of time when the granddaughter is over. Brushing and bailing on steel casing can make a big difference. Not so much with PVC casing. But 5 GPM of water must be there for it to get in the casing even after it is cleaned.

 

[Zoomschwortz]

It's been nearly 1 year since I first posted, so it is time for an update.

During this past year I have looked into the possibility of drilling another well and it will cost thousands of dollars before I could get a yes or no answer. I have decided to move forward with my 3,000 gallon tank. Concrete slab, water lines and hydrants are now in. Giving the slab a few months to cure before covering and filling tank.
I am now planning what I will need to purchase to finish this project.

QUESTION

I need help in selecting a submersible pump to go into my 3,000 gallon tank.

The bottom of the tank (top of concrete slab) is approximately 12 feet below the shower head in the bathroom, but to be safe, let's just call it 15 feet.
I have 1 1/4" black poly pipe for the outlet that goes 100 feet to a "T" that reduces to 1" black poly which goes 50' to the house and 1" black poly that goes to 3 frost free hydrants with the last hydrant being close to 300' from the "T"..
The ground is fairly flat, so at most, the exit from hydrants is no more than 5 feet above top of concrete slab.

The back of my shop is wired for a welder (no outlet installed) and has 240v 60 amp breakers with box about 60 feet from panel and water tank will be approximately 50 feet from box for total of 110' run from panel. I do not know the gauge of the 3 wires, but they are heavy gauge copper (maybe 4 gauge???) and I will try to post a picture of box w/3 wires + ground. Sorry, I couldn't find anything printed on wire.

I would like to have at 20 gpm at the hydrants, but maybe as much as 25 gpm would be nice if it could be reasonably accomplished.

I will have the water tank covered by an insulated building that will also have 6-8, 4 foot LED shop lights and some 120v outlets for filters, UV light, and heat tapes for plumbing protection.

I want to have a breaker panel inside the Tank House and have the submersible pump plugged into an outlet connected to the panel and if/when we have a power outage, then plug submersible pump into another outlet that is powered by a generator to keep us supplied with water. I want a CSV, but to keep us supplied with water during power outage and making the intervals between firing up the generator longer, I will be using a couple larger sized Diaphragm Tanks. Don't know if they make diaphragm tanks like they used to, but the Craftsman Diaphragm Tank that is in my well house was old when we moved into our house 30 years ago and it is still working great after replacing 2 bladder tanks that we added for extra water volume.

I hope that at least some of this information will help in giving an accurate pump recommendation.

WHAT SUBMERSIBLE PUMPS WOULD WORK FOR ME?

Thank you for your help.
Ken

 

[Valveman]

Well you can still have all the other benefits of a Cycle Stop Valve as it will work just fine with two large diaphragm tanks. By setting the CSV at 58 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch it doesn't take any longer to fill the tanks than without a CSV. But an 80 gallon pressure tank only holds 20 gallons of water. There are much better ways to store a little water for power outages than a pressure tank. A 100 gallon retention tank actually holds 100 gallons of water, and with a little 12V RV pump and a battery it can come on automatically when the main pump fails to come on at 40 PSI.

You can get one of those 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pumps for about 170 bucks and the CSV will make it ack like a small pump when a small pump is all that is needed.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hallmark-Industries-1-HP-230-Volt-Stainless-Steel-Submersible-Well-Pump/5015188153

 

[Zoomschwortz]

Well you can still have all the other benefits of a Cycle Stop Valve as it will work just fine with two large diaphragm tanks. By setting the CSV at 58 PSI with a 40/60 pressure switch it doesn't take any longer to fill the tanks than without a CSV. But an 80 gallon pressure tank only holds 20 gallons of water. There are much better ways to store a little water for power outages than a pressure tank. A 100 gallon retention tank actually holds 100 gallons of water, and with a little 12V RV pump and a battery it can come on automatically when the main pump fails to come on at 40 PSI.

You can get one of those 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark pumps for about 170 bucks and the CSV will make it ack like a small pump when a small pump is all that is needed.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hallmark-Industries-1-HP-230-Volt-Stainless-Steel-Submersible-Well-Pump/5015188153

View attachment 101219

View attachment 101220

Thank you for your help Valveman.
I like the idea of using an RV pump vs expensive diaphram tanks for if/when the power goes out.

I have some more questions.
1) Since I have a 3,000 gallon tank (looks like the picture you included, with exception of being black) sitting on an above ground concrete slab, will I need the 100 gallon retention tank?

2) Is there an advantage in having the submersible in tank pump being vertical and out of the top of the tank or horizontal and exiting out of the base of the tank?

3) Can the RV Pump pull water through the submersible pump or will it block the water from exiting the tank?

Thanks again
Ken

 

[Bannerman]

2) Is there an advantage in having the submersible in tank pump being vertical and out of the top of the tank or horizontal and exiting out of the base of the tank?

Suggest mounting a submersible pump horizontally at or just above the bottom of the cistern, then utilize a brass elbow to direct the piping upward so as to exit either through or near the top of the tank. Elevating the pump above the bottom a short distance (as the example shown below), will reduce the potential for any debris that settles to the bottom of the cistern, from being drawn into the pump.

With the pipe exiting above the cistern's highest water level, not only will there be less potential for water leakage around the pipe, but will usually also eliminate the need for a valve between the pump and pressure tank/pressure switch unless the PT/PS is located at a lower elevation than the cistern (ie: potential siphon if leak prior to PT/PS).

A submersible pump, either in a vertical or horizontal orientation, will require a flow inducer sleeve, to ensure there will be always sufficient cooling flow over the pump's electric motor.

Flow inducer sleeve:

 

[Valveman]

Thank you for your help Valveman.
I like the idea of using an RV pump vs expensive diaphram tanks for if/when the power goes out.

I have some more questions.
1) Since I have a 3,000 gallon tank (looks like the picture you included, with exception of being black) sitting on an above ground concrete slab, will I need the 100 gallon retention tank?

2) Is there an advantage in having the submersible in tank pump being vertical and out of the top of the tank or horizontal and exiting out of the base of the tank?

3) Can the RV Pump pull water through the submersible pump or will it block the water from exiting the tank?

Thanks again
Ken

Correct. You already have 3,000 gallons stored, you don't need any more in a pressure tank or retention tank. You can actually draw water through the submersible with the RV pump or push water through a jet pump from the storage tank.

 

[Zoomschwortz]

Suggest mounting a submersible pump horizontally at or just above the bottom of the cistern, then utilize a brass elbow to direct the piping upward so as to exit either through or near the top of the tank. Elevating the pump above the bottom a short distance (as the example shown below), will reduce the potential for any debris that settles to the bottom of the cistern, from being drawn into the pump.

With the pipe exiting above the cistern's highest water level, not only will there be less potential for water leakage around the pipe, but will usually also eliminate the need for a valve between the pump and pressure tank/pressure switch unless the PT/PS is located at a lower elevation than the cistern (ie: potential siphon if leak prior to PT/PS).

A submersible pump, either in a vertical or horizontal orientation, will require a flow inducer sleeve, to ensure there will be always sufficient cooling flow over the pump's electric motor.

Flow inducer sleeve:

With the pipe exiting above the cistern's highest water level, not only will there be less potential for water leakage around the pipe, but will usually also eliminate the need for a valve between the pump and pressure tank/pressure switch unless the PT/PS is located at a lower elevation than the cistern (ie: potential siphon if leak prior to PT/PS).

My plan has been to have the pressure tank mounted on the floor, around 8 foot below the high water mark of the tank, so it sounds like there could be a chance of a potential siphon/leak.
Is my only option of preventing siphon/leak, mounting pressure tank and switch higher than the water level of my tank?

Thanks again
Ken

 

[Bannerman]

My plan has been to have the pressure tank mounted on the floor, around 8 foot below the high water mark of the tank,

You could continue to locate the pressure tank & switch at floor level.

It's always advisable to not install any shut-off valves or filters between the pump and pressure switch, as someone closing the valve by mistake, or a clogged filter, will deadhead the pump since the water will have no place to flow to. As the pressure sensed by the pressure switch will not rise, the pump is likely to continue running until it becomes overheated or burns out.

For these reasons, the main shut off valve for the house is usually placed after the pressure tank, thereby reducing the potential for the pressure switch to be isolated from sensing pump pressure.

When maintenance or repairs to the section between the pump and pressure tank is required, will require shutting off the breaker for the pump and completely draining the pressure tank, in a controlled fashion.

If you install a PK1A CSV kit as shown in Valveman's diagrams, the pressure tank will likely be a tiny 4.5 gallon capacity unit which will only contain ~1 gallon when filled, and maybe mounted on a wall, post or stand.

 

[Zoomschwortz]

Thank you for your help and advice Bannerman, it is greatly appreciated.

The part about not having a valve between the pump and pressure switch makes very good sense, but the idea of needing to drain 3,000 gallons of water in order to make a simple repair and then refill the tank at 60 gallons per hour, is not very appealing.

I need to make sure everything is as mistake proof as possible in case I kick the bucket and my wife needs to shut off the water to the house, but she would really be up a creek if she burned up a pump.

I am thinking that it may be wise to have a valve that can be locked between the pump and pressure switch and another valve after the pressure switch and tank.
I can have a warning sign at the locked valve with instructions about turning off pump before closing valve and then opening valve before turning pump back on.

I really liked the idea of attaching the pump to a flexible hose and then exiting the tank through the bung near the bottom of the tank, but, as you say, there is a greater chance of leaks and with Murphy's Law, I'll have a leak.

I am now greatly leaning to exiting through the top of the tank, which could make it possible to pull the pump without draining the tank, but I'll need to think this through. I want the pump to be horizontal to give me access to more gallons of water before the pump shuts down and strapping the pump to the 4" pipes should keep the pump from moving around. I am guessing that 1 1/4 poly pipe for the vertical would be okay and would help reduce the flow loss of the 90 degree elbows.

I also need to be thinking about controlling the filling of the tank (no overfilling) and reliable means of shutting off the pump should the water level get too low. It would be nice to have a warning shutdown when 700-800 gallons are left in the tank, but still be able to override the warning so I still have water while working out the lack of water problem, and another shutdown when water level is too low to safely pump.

Thanks again for your help
Ken

 

[Reach4]

A lock on the valve makes sense. Some just remove the handle, and maybe add a sign.