Well liner question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Oregon Incognito, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Hello,

    I'm new to this site, but have been reading here a lot over the past few months.

    I just had a new well installed at 243 feet in Turner, Oregon. It has 6" steel casing for 170' and the rest of the well is lined with 4" PVC Certa-Lok. The water is coming from 175-200' depth. The static water level is 26'. Air test was over 10GPM and he expects the pump to produce about 15GPM.

    My other bids were going to install 4.5" liner instead of 4". I asked my well driller to install 4.5", but he forgot and installed 4". So my question is does it matter?

    Also, I plan on installing the pump, controls, etc. Any suggestion on what components I should use?

    Thank you for the help,
    Steve
     
  2. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Sep 30, 2013
    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    Steve

    With a standard nominal 4” submersible pump, you will have 1/4” clearance between the pump and the 4” liner. You would have had 3/4” clearance with the 4 1/2” liner. Either will work. Personally, I like the extra clearance just in case something were to be dropped down the well on top of the pump. Performance wise, no difference. Or you could go to the Grundfos 3” pump.

    You need to review where the driller slotted the liner. You need to install the pump higher than the top perforations. The liner acts as a flow inducer sleeve. If the pump is installed down into the perforations, you lose coo,I gotta water flow past the motor. Not good.

    Good luck with your install
     
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  4. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    I have been working on installing power and excavation for the house site, so I have not made any progress on the well yet. I would like to start getting things lined out for the well pump and controls.

    Long story short I did get the 4.5" liner instead of the 4". The crew supposedly didn't follow the bid and installed the 4.5". I have no way to confirm this so I guess I will have to take his word for it. Also, it's what he filed with the State of Oregon well report.

    Boycedrilling said I need to make sure the pump is installed above the perforations. The perforations are installed from 180' to 240'. The slots are 6" long X .188". The static water level is 25'. Does this change much throughout the year?
    Water was found from 165' to 185'. It was air tested for one hour and produced 10-GPM at 240'. Do you think it will produce more than 10-GPM with an electric pump?

    How do I go about selecting a pump brand/size, controls, etc? I would like to use the Cycle Stop valve. Threaded PVC pipe with stainless steel couplers seems to be a nice upgrade.

    I'm am going to use a pitless adapter. Should I use a gasket style or one that is welded on? I'm a capable welder, but don't want to make extra work if it is not necessary.

    Thanks in advance,
    Steve
     
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    If you lift the well cap, you should be able to see the liner. While the liner will be down below the pitless adapter, you could rig something to measure, being extra-careful to drop nothing into the well.


    If you want to put the pump below the perforations, you can do that by using a flow inducer made from solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056. You can find construction suggestions in this forum. Make sure the clamps clear. When you apply the clamps, due to the slots you cut, the diameter should pull in. So make sure you clear your 4.5 inch liner with a margin.
    This would be the question. Would a 7 gpm 1/2HP (or 10 gpm 3/4 HP with 3-4 bathrooms) be enough? Probably. If you have higher GPM needs due to a big backwashing iron filter, for example, you might need more flow.

    It is the distance down the surface of the water, rather than the pump mounting distance, that counts. You would like the pump set deep enough to give some margin. You would like the pump to be able to deliver some water from that depth, but reduced flow from there is OK. Add maybe 15 feet to the actual rise to account for loses.

    If you were to use a 7 gpm 1.5 hp pump or more, you could run into upthrust issues. If that is the case, you can add a Dole valve to keep the pump from delivering volumes that are way too high.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Reach4,

    Thanks for the reply.
    How would a pump installer decide on how deep to set the pump based on my information? The house is a 2 bath 3 bedroom. I would also like to irrigate my lawn and landscaping.
    What would be the maximum GPM the well could deliver without adding extra capacity like a cistern?

    Any thoughts on which style of a pitless adapter(welded vs gasket compressed/sealed on the well casing)?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  7. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You can set the pump at 179' and not use a flow inducer. You won't know how much the well will produce until you install a pump and run it hard for as long as your irrigation zones will be. But with a static of 25' I think you would be fine. With the CSV you can start with a little larger pump just to test the well. If it makes the test, fine. If the well won't produce as much as the pump the CSV will fix that. If the well only makes say 8 GPM, just don't use more than 8 GPM, and the CSV will make a 20 GPM pump act like an 8 GPM pump. Little more electricity, but won't hurt a thing.

    A 16 to 20 GPM series 1.5HP pump will put out about 15 GPM from 180' and 50 PSI. The CSV as in the PK1A kit will make it work from 1 GPM to 15 GPM, depending on how many faucets you open up.

    Steel casing really needs welding. Plastic casing compression fitting works fine.
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I would think most pitless adapters on steel today are not welded.
     
  9. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I see just the opposite. I don't know that I have ever seen steel casing without a welded pitless, but I know it is possible.
     
  10. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    What do you think of this style of welded Pitless? It's a Maass Midwest Style J. The nice part of this pitless is that if the driller needs to get back into the well the casing bore is free of obstructions after the removal of the pump.

    What is the standard procedure for cutting the hole on the side? Do I need to catch all of the metal chips and grinding dust from falling into the well?

    upload_2020-1-27_20-7-56.jpeg [​IMG]
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Those work well. I would not put my pressure relief valve on the pitless. You would never know when it is dumping water and you have a problem. Stuff a rag or something that won't burn or fall down the well to catch the cuttings.
     
  12. craigpump

    craigpump In the Trades

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    Those MAAS pitless units are ok, but can be a pain to cut in and weld on when you're working in a hole beside the well. I have seen where scale from the steel casing has settled in around them making them hard to pull. Personally, I prefer a B-10x style pitless. In a 6" steel casing there is more than enough room to get a 4" pump past it with no problem.
     
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  13. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Craigpump,

    So the B-10x style is a non-welded gasket type and installed with a drilled hole through the casing? Have you had good luck with this style in terms of no leaks?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  14. craigpump

    craigpump In the Trades

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    Cut the hole with the proper sized hole saw so you get a clean cut, install it properly and you're done. No, I've never had any problems, but if you cut a sloppy hole with a torch you could have a leak. The chances for a weld on pitless to leak are greater than using a B10x.
     
  15. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Location:
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    The two estimates I received are quite a bit different. My well driller wants to use a Centripro 1-HP with a 10-GPM pump set at 160' depth. The other bid wants to use a Grundfos 10S15-21 1.5-Hp 10-GPM pump set at 240' depth. He likes the Cyclestop valve, but wants to use a bigger tank. Not sure why? His reason to set it at 240' is so it will not have a chance of running out of water.
    They both would use 1 check valve with 1.25" PVC pipe and SS couplers.
    How do I decide which is the better install regardless of cost?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The 1.5HP set at 240' should be quite a bit more expensive than the 1HP set at 160'. The Grundfos also has Stainless steel impellers where the Goulds has plastic. You didn't say the static water level? If the water level is high enough you may not need to access the water all the way from 240'. But if the water level isn't at least 117' deep, the 1.5HP pump will build too much pressure to work with a CSV1A. And if the water level is at 117' or deeper, setting at 160' may not be deep enough.

    A larger tank is fine with the CSV. It is just hard for pump guys who have spent a lifetime trying to talk people into larger tanks to completely change their ways. But at least he is up to date enough to be using Cycle Stop Valves. Like with me, it will take some time but he will eventually figure out those larger tanks are not needed.

    Might consider a third option and split the difference. A 1HP like the Grundfos 10S10-15 would still work from 200'. You would have access to 40' more stored water. The back pressure would then work with a CSV1A regardless of the water level. Might even split the difference on the tank size used with a CSV. He probably wants to use a 44 gallon tank, I would use no larger than 10 gallon, so maybe a 20 gallon size tank? :)
     
  17. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Valveman,

    Thanks for the quick reply.
    The static water level is at 26 feet. On a prior post above you mentioned setting the pump at 179' without a flow inducer. Your 3rd option at 200' puts me real close to your original advice. Is a flow inducer a good idea in terms of extra insurance at any depth?

    Steve
     
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I should have read up a ways. Lol!

    Yes a flow inducer is a good idea no matter what. But "reading up" you have 4.5" casing and a flow inducer would be a really tight fit. Just set the pump at 179' because the perfs start at 180', as any deeper than 179' would require a flow inducer. You could also use the 16S15-14 in a 1.5 HP set at that depth instead of the 1HP 10 GPM. The back pressure from either would work with the CSV1A and a static level of 26'.
     
  19. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    What are the differences/similarities between the Grundfos 10S15-21 and the 16S15-14? Not sure what their numbers mean besides 10 and 16 GPM? Are these pumps complete with the motor or is that a separate purchase?

    Steve
     
  20. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    15 is 1.5 HP. 14 and 21 are 14 stages or 21 stages. 21 stages generates more pressure at lower gpm.
     
  21. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You can purchase them separately or together. Sometime you have to get the motor separate to get the 2 wire or 3 wire like you want. I prefer three wire but you also need the control box.
     
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