Well liner question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Oregon Incognito, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Occupation:
    "retired" and still building and troubleshooting
    Location:
    northfork, california
    If your static level is 26 feet, I would set the pump myself with 1" 160 psi polyethylene pipe. Use long SS or brass hose barbs with 3 rated hose clamps made in the USA. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0036R4U6Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Sounds like you don't need to hire anyone. I have 4 wells with poly pipe going on 30 years without a issue.
     
    valveman likes this.
  2. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Which would be the better pump if it is set at 179 feet deep? The unknown is what the well will actually produce. It air tested at just over 10GPM. The well driller thought it would do better than that with an electric pump. I plan on a three-wire with a Franklin control box.

    Valveman-
    Should I bother with a flow inducer? At 179 feet it will be inside the larger steel well casing that would have more clearance than the PVC liner.
    Steve
     
  3. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Yeah I see where it is 6" steel down to 170'. So yes a 4" flow inducer would be a good idea. A flow inducer will also keep the motor cool while the water is coming from above as the water level drops. Plus it keeps the motor from rubbing on the 6" steel casing.

    You have a couple hundred gallons stored in the well above 179'. So they only real demand on the pump will be the irrigation. You will just need to test the well for as long and as much as the irrigation will be using a see if the well maintains. One benefit of the CSV, even though the pump wants to produce 12-14 GPM from that depth and pressure, the CSV will let you install sprinkler zones to match the output of the well, not the pump. So, if you well turns out to only make say 7 GPM for long terms, the CSV will let you set up your irrigation zones from 1 GPM to as much as 7 GPM.
     
  4. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Valveman,

    Below is my well data. It looks like the PVC starts at 143 feet deep. The steel goes to 169. There is a 26 foot overlap. So too tight for a flow inducer?

    Steve

    Well data.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  5. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Valveman,

    Based on my well data above, I should skip the flow inducer since the PVC liner and steel overlap at 143'-169'?

    I found a local company that does sales and installation. They will sell me all the parts and pieces(no labor) plus give me some technical help as needed. I could save a few hundred dollars buying it piecemeal, but I think this is a better deal since it's my first install. What are your thoughts on their Berkley 10GPM 1.5HP model B10P4MS15231?
    Do you recommend 10 or 12 gauge flat jacketed wire?


    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  6. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Looks like the 4.5" is perferated from 180' to 240'. So you don't need a flow inducer if you set the pump above 180'. The static is 25' but the first water bearing formation was at 165', so setting above 180' should be good.

    The 10 GPM Berkeley/Pentair pump is one of the worst ones. The floating stage impellers drag by design and do not drop in amps when using lower flow rates like many other brands will do. Plus, it is not the right pump to set at 180', as it is made to work down to 600+ feet. IN 1.5Hp the 15 GPM series would be much better, or the 10 GPM, in a 1HP is really all you need. Should be able to get a Grundfos or a Goulds for the same price as a Berkeley, and they would be much better,

    With a 1.5HP number 14 wire will go 190', and #12 will go 310'. With a 1HP number 14 is good to 250'. Using the longest length of the smallest wire possible will work like a reduced voltage soft starter, so you don't want to oversize wire.
     
  7. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    That is good to know. I'll ask if they carry any other brands.

    My 400amp electrical panel/meter is in the middle of my property. The panel has 2- 200 amp breakers in it and has room for 12 breakers. I would like to run the well circuit from this panel. The house will be started next year and will be a slow owner build. My plan is to use a pitless adapter and mount the CSV assembly in a large underground valve box(lid flush with the top of the dirt grade). This will be for aesthetics mostly. I don't plan on relocating the CSV into the house if possible.
    So my question is should I look into a 2 wire pump so I don't have the controller at the well on a post or back at the panel(lots more wire in the trench). Any electrical code issues with my plan? Does a well need a disconnect switch?

    Thanks,
    Steve

    upload_2020-5-19_10-38-44.png
     
  8. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    A 2 wire motor would be fine, so you won't need to install a control box at the well. The PK1A kit can fit in a valve box no problem. You can even add another small tank at the house if you like, so you can use as small a tank as possible in the valve box. Put a 4.5 or 10 gallon tank at the house somewhere, and you can use a 2.2 gallon tank with the PK1A kit in the valve box. Condensation in a valve box can be a problem as it can rust a tank from the outside in and will turn the copper in a pressure switch green. An air vent on the lid in the summer will help.
     
  9. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    I see what you mean about it not being the right pump for my application. The pump curve shows it clearly. It's surprising a company that has been in the well business for 70 years would make a mistake like that.
    Where is a good place to buy a Grundfos or Goulds pump? Based on my info what models should I narrow it down to?

    Steve
     
  10. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Grundfos would be a 16S15-14 for a 1.5HP and a 10S10-15 for a 1HP. Goulds would be 13GS15 for 1.5HP and a 10GS10 for a 1HP. Just Google those numbers to find a place to purchase.

    Unfortunately it is not surprising the pump company would install a pump made for 600' in a 180' well. There are a few good pump installers, several of which help out on this forum. But the vast majority of so called "professionals" haven't got a clue what they are doing. Many times the worst of the bunch is the most vocal. They will loudly proclaim they know better than everyone else, and many will argue with everything I say. This only makes them look foolish to those of us who really understand pumps. :)
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Some will quickly and loudly proclaim they know better than everyone else. The stupid stuff they say is embarrassing, especially to real pump professionals. :)

    Pumps are complicated. I have been doing this over 50 years and I still learn something new everyday. But some worked for their uncle one summer, and think they know all there is to know about pumps. What they post on the Internet is like reading the funny pages. LOL!
     
  12. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    How do I calculate my Total Dynamic Head? Since it is a sloping lot, my house will be above the well. Also, some of the landscape irrigation will be higher yet above the house. Should I get some elevations with my laser level? Half of the landscaping will be equal or below the wellhead.
    If my static water is at 25', what should I plan on for drawdown?
    I plan on using 1.25" PVC for most of the water piping. Some of my neighbors have filters for bad taste. One has a sand problem, but it is a shallow well(70 feet).

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Start with 140 ft for 60 psi of water at the house.
    Add the altitude drop to the well.
    Add the distance to water, which may be more than the static level due to drawdown or aquifer dropping..
    Add the dynamic pressure drop due to flow. http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ will help with the pressure drop, and then convert the PSI to feet by multiplying by 2.31.

    However you don't need to plan for full gpm at 60 psi. As long as you have the gpm at 40 psi, that's good.

    It's often easier is to use the tables that many pump books have, rather than the actual curves. In that case, mainly add the altitude drop to the well to the distance to water from the top of the well.

    Here is an example table:
    [​IMG]

    A 1/2 HP 1o gpm pump may be a good one for you. That size is about the cheapest submersible. Size the irrigation method and zones to match the pump. If you decide to get a 40 gpm pump to irrigate faster, it won't be so good for house water IMO.

    If you will irrigate with long-throw impact sprinklers, then you would probably need more PSI.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  14. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If the static is 25' the pump is only lifting from 25', no matter how deep the pump is set. But setting the pump at 170' and the first water bearing formation is at 165', so the water could pull down this far. If you have a pumping level during a well test it helps. Otherwise I would figure pumping from 160' or so. The rise to the house needs to be added to that, and another 50 PSI (115') for the pressure needed. If the tank/switch are at the house, you would just use the standard 40/60 setting. If the tank is at the well, the pressure switch needs to be increased to make up for the elevation. 23' of elevation would need a 50/70 switch. 46' of elevation would need a 60/80 switch and so on. But the TDH for the pump would be the same. 160' + 115' + 46' = 321' TDH. Find a pump that does the flow rate needed at 321'. A 2HP like a Goulds 18GS20 will pump about 17 GPM for an example. If you know the pumping level you could install a smaller pump and still get the same flow rate.
     
  15. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Gentleman,

    I got the laser level out this past weekend and this is what I measured. From the dirt at the wellhead to my house's highest floor the ground rises 8 feet. The house is about 100 feet from the well.
    From the well to the furthest sprinkler head the distance is about 400 feet of trenching with an elevation increase of 24 feet from the wellhead. I don't need big sprinkler heads out there. It is for the driveway entrance and landscape strips on either side. So if it saves on pump and pipe size I'm OK with longer water cycling times.
    Based on this info what pump should I be looking at purchasing?

    Valveman- I plan on the CSV and pressure switch at the wellhead.

    Thanks again for all the help on this project,
    Steve
     
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    With a 50/70 switch the TDH will still be 321'. It is just a matter of how many sprinklers you want to run at one time. The 2HP would run 17 GPM and maybe 8 sprinklers where a 1HP like a 10GS10 would only do 8 GPM or about 4 sprinklers at a time.
     
  17. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    I think the Grundfos 10S10-15 or the Goulds 10GS10 would be fine for what I need. Should I buy by price or is there a compelling reason to go with one over the other?

    Valveman- with the higher pressure switch what would my pressures be at the house or the highest elevation? What would happen to pressure irrigating at elevations below the well? For example, my property below the well is probably 40 or more feet below the wellhead.

    Steve
     
  18. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The 50/70 switch setting would give you 58 PSI constant at the house, 50 PSI at the upper sprinklers, and 70 PSI on the line 40' below everything else. Probably not much difference in the quality of those two pumps, but the best to drop amps when working with a CSV is the Grundfos.
     
  19. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    Between the pump and the pressure switch will the water pressure be changing?
    When I set the pump at 179" is this is measured from the inlet of the pump?
    Do well drillers measure the depth of the perforations from the top of the casing(sticking out of the ground almost 2 feet) or from the dirt?

    I ordered the pump and it has a built-in check valve. Do I need another one in this build?

    Steve
     
  20. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The check valve on the pump is the only one you need. The pressure switch turns the pump on at 40 and off at 60. If you want the water pressure to stay at a constant 50 PSI while using water you will need a CSV1A. Most measurements say +2' if measured from a 2' tall casing sticking up.
     
Similar Threads: liner question
Forum Title Date
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life. Gravel Question for Well Liner Jul 15, 2019
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life. Casing repair sleeve, aka well liner. any non-PVC options? Aug 14, 2017
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life. 4" PVC liner and pitless adaptor Aug 12, 2017
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life. Sump liner & perforations Feb 6, 2016
Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life. Sump pit liner Apr 28, 2008

Share This Page