Well liner question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by Oregon Incognito, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Since there is no mention of where the driller measured from, I think I will set the pump at 177'(instead of 179) to be safe. The measurement is taken from the pump inlet correct?

    I think you meant a 50/70 pressure switch?

    Since this is going into an oversized valve box, my plan was to install a short section of PT 4X4 vertically to mount the CSV on. Which configuration do I need to keep it low and compact?

    Steve
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
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    Lubbock, Texas
    If you put everything in a valve box spray the tank with Flex Seal so it doesn't rust from condensation. Then anyway you can get the tank it the valve box is OK. It can be in any position.

    Usually they measure the pump setting to the bottom of the motor.
     
  3. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
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    I picked up the Grundfos 10S10-15 yesterday. The manual is useless. No wiring diagram for a 2 wire setup. The electrical inspector was out to green tag my new 400 amp service. I asked him what the code was for grounding, etc for the pump circuit. He didn't know and told me to go by the pump installation manual. So when he comes out to inspect it how is he going to know if I installed to code or not? Beyond frustrating.

    Not much online addressing this electrical code topic that I could find.
    1. Do I need to ground the green pump ground wire to the steel well casing? Then do I need to take the ground back to my panel?
    2. Is the 50/70 pressure switch going to handle turning the pump on and off long term?
    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  4. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    How far is the service ground from the well casing? The green wire should terminate at the breaker panel. There should be a separate #6 ground from the service ground to the well casing but local inspectors may not require it. My inspector insisted I bond the casing to the service ground with #6.
     
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    I doubt that #6 service ground is normally done to a casing in the US. Maybe that was in lieu of a ground rod.
     
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    No. I had previously installed the required two ground rods for the service ground.
     
  7. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Royal City, WA
    The National Electic Code (NEC) REQUIRES that any metal casing be connected to the equipment grounding conductor. This is NOT the same thing as ground rods or the grounding conductor. The casing is grounded, but is not the ground. There is a distinction, that the layman is not expected to understand, but an electrician is required to understand the difference.

    In Washington state, pump installers are required to hold both an electrician's license and a plumbers license. We have to take 24 hrs of continuing education every three years. We have to obtain an electrical permit and have the installation inspected by the State Electrical inspector. As a practical matter, they can't inspect what we install in the well, so their inspection starts at the well head, the wiring and conduit from the well to the pressure switch and control box, then to the breaker in the Electrical panel.

    My electrical inspector does look for and verify that the casing is grounded. The installation WILL NOT be approved if this is not done. Some steel well caps have grounding screws to accomplish this. Normally I drill a 1/4" hole in the side of the casing, and attach a 2 hole grounding lug to the inside of the casing with a stainless steel bolt and nut. I land the EGC from the pump on one hole, and the EGC from the Electrical supply on the other hole.

    I am qualified to obtain an Oregon pump installers license, but have never needed one. Oregon does also follow the NEC, but I don't think inspections are required.
     
  8. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    So yes, the equipment grounding conductor needs to extend from the motor to the top of the well, be attached to the steel well casing, extend to the grounding screws in the start box, if there is one, to the grounding screws in the pressure switch, and on to the ground bar in the Electrical panel. One electrically continuous equipment grounding conductor.

    What happens after that depends on whether it is landed in a main panel, a sub panel in the same structure, or a sub panel in a separate structure.
     
  9. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

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    Steve,

    I know it doesn't help you, but usually an electrical inspector will tell you that it's not his job to explain electrical codes.

    In Washington the majority of electrical permits are obtained by electrical contractors as opposed to home owners. I don't remember the exact percentages off han, but is around 80% contractor, 20% homeowners . However well over 80% of correction notices are issued to homeowners rather than contractors.
     
  10. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Boycedrilling,

    Thanks for the info.
    I understand the position of most electrical inspectors. My inspector was honest with me and admitted he did not know how it should be wired properly. He is newer at the job and had to call another inspector on a question before he signed off on my 400amp service last week. I did get my green tag on my first inspection! I know it's a touchy subject with homeowners doing their own work, but I've been a licensed general contractor in my past career. I only tackle stuff I think I can be successful at. My wife I bought 4 bare acres and we are doing 95% of the work. The prior owner abandoned his Christmas trees and most trees were 75-100 feet tall. We cleared 450 trees and pulled all of the stumps(never again).
    Oregon is only concerned from the well head to the panel too.

    Is the 50/70 pressure switch going to handle turning the pump on and off long term?


    Steve

    New service.jpg Clearing.jpg
     
  11. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If all you have is a tank and a 50/70 switch then long term is not what you will get. Adding a CSV1A to that will hold the pressure at a constant 60 while you are using water, then your 50/70 switch and everything else will last long term. You would also be able to use as small as a 10 gallon tank as comes with a PK1A kit.

     
  12. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Valveman,

    I need to order the CSV kit this week. Since I'm putting my kit in a vault I need to get the tank size figured out. After the CSV kit the water pipe will branch 5 ways. 1- yard hydrant(near well), 2-house(uphill), 3- RV pad(downhill), 4- Shop(downhill), 5- Irrigation. I would like to keep the CSV kit in the vault next to the well permanently. A small tank for the vault(4.5 gal) would be nice if possible. What is my best option since you have mentioned a few different configurations from 2.2 to 10 gallons. Are 2 tanks better than one?

    Steve
     
  13. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
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    The higher the pressure the less a tank holds. At 50/70 I would use at least a 10 gallon size tank. However, you can use a 2.2 gallon on the PK1A kit to make it fit in a small vault. Then you can add an additional tank at the house or anywhere you can access a water line. Adding an additional 10 gallon tank at the water heater, under a sink, or somewhere else in the house will work as well as having a larger tank at the well. The 2.2 gallon tank in the vault will be enough to cushion the pressure switch, and an additional tank can be added elsewhere if needed.
     
  14. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Would it make any sense to start out with a 40-60 pressure switch and see how things go since my higher elevation irrigation project will probably be years down the road? Then if I don't have enough pressure at the higher elevations I could change it out to a 50-70 switch? My thinking is I will have to reduce PSI at the lower elevations for my RV and irrigation so I don't blow a water line or components.

    The Grundfos 10s0-15 pump manual says to use a steel nipple directly off the pump, not to use a plastic fitting. They also say I need to slack a few inches of the pump electrical wire every ten feet to account for pipe stretch. Does this apply to 1- 1/4"schedule 120 threaded PVC drop pipe?

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  15. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    You can crank a 40/60 up to 50/70. About 3.5 turns CW on the nut on the big spring.

    Use brass or stainless. Some use a redundant spring-loaded check valve right above the pump. Don't use a check valve above water.

    If the pump will be in the 6 inch steel, use a flow inducer sleeve to cool the motor, especially with your 1.5 hp pump. Try to have the pump above the slots.

    Yes, PVC expands and contracts with temperature., although if it is hot when you install, that should not be needed. Expect things to be cooler in the well if the day is hot. https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-pvc-d_782.html Use Scotch 33+ or Scotch 66 other professional grade tape. Don't use the lowest price generic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The regular PK1A kit is adjustable up to 55/75 without changing the switch. It is easy to adjust if needed. You could also put a pressure reducing valve on the line to the house and another to the irrigation and have different pressures at each. I have a 15 PSI pressure regulator on the drip system to my garden and I run a 50/70 switch for everything else.

    Metal yes, steel no! Use a brass or Stainless fitting in the pump.

    The tape will allow for the wire to stretch as needed, just don't pull the wire up extra tight up top.
     
  17. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Good to know about the pressure switch adjustability.
    Yes- Only brass or stainless steel in the well
    I wanted to use a flow inducer sleeve, but there is not enough clearance in 4.5" Certa-Lok. Even with 4" thin wall stainless steel tubing I think the pump would starve for incoming water between the motor and the sleeve.

    I know(after reading on this forum) you should not put any extra check valves in the system. Is the one built-in on my pump of good quality? Since I need to put an adapter coming off the pump would it hurt to be a check valve(redundant) or am I asking for problems?

    Steve
     
  18. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a worthwhile redundancy without the potential water hammer problems of higher-up check valves.
     
  19. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    You say they found water at 165'-185'. If so setting the pump above 165' would negate the need for a cooling shroud.

    Depending on which pump you get how good a check valve they have. But it doesn't hurt to have a 6" nipple on the pump and add another check valve there.
     
  20. Oregon Incognito

    Oregon Incognito Member

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    Jul 9, 2019
    Location:
    Albany, Oregon
    I bought a Grundfos 10s10-15 pump.

    Flomatic has numerous models of check valves. Which one do you installers like?

    With a pitless adaptor setup what is a popular cap to use on a 6" steel casing?

    I found a good price on flat jacketed 12/3(plus ground) submersible pump cable. It's one more wire than I need for a 2 wire pump, so I will have a spare in case of a future electrical problem. After looking at the Franklin wire sizing chart it looks like I can use 170' of #12 in the well and finish the remaining 115' from the well to the breaker with #14. My plan is to install single strand wires in PVC electrical conduit. Does this sound correct?

    The Franklin literature says to use a 25amp breaker for a 1HP pump. Would this apply to my 1HP?


    Thank you,
    Steve

    Specifications

    Product name: MS 402
    Product No: 79952104
    EAN number: 5700390663018
    Technical
    Shaft seal for motor: LIPSEAL
    Approvals on nameplate: CE,EAC,CSACOMP,UR
    Model: B
    Motor version: T40
    Materials
    Motor: Stainless steel
    Motor: DIN W.-Nr. 1.4301
    Motor: AISI 304
    Installation
    Maximum ambient pressure: 15 bar
    Motor diameter: 4 inch
    Staybolt: 5/16-24 UNF
    Liquid
    Max liquid t at 0.15 m/sec: 40 °C
    Electrical data
    Motor type: MS402
    Motor type 1-phase: RSIR
    Rated power - P2: 0.75 kW
    KVA code: M
    Mains frequency: 60 Hz
    Rated voltage: 1 x 230 V
    Voltage tolerance: +10/-10 %
    Service factor: 1.40
    Rated current: 9.8 A
    Maximum current consumption: 9.8 A
    Starting current: 570 %
    Cos phi - power factor: 0.82
    Rated speed: 3450 rpm
    Locked-rotor torque: 80 %
    Moment of inertia: 0.0006 kg m²
    Axial load max: 350 kg
    Start. method: direct-on-line
    Enclosure class (IEC 34-5): IP68
    Insulation class (IEC 85): B
    Motor protec: CONTACT
    Thermal protec: internal
    Built-in temp. transmitter: no
    R a: 2.70 ohm
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2020
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