Toilet Base Leaks When clogged

[Mr Fixit eh]

So, I'm helping a friend with a toilet that was leaking around the base. The valve would stick open and there would be significant flooding from the base. The plumbing system is 30 years old, toilet is fairly 'new'.

Before I started, I flushed - no leaking. I dumped a pail of water down to clear the water out - no leaks.

I removed the toilet. The flange appears intact, but was was poorly secured. I secured with tapcons to the concrete. I installed a 'thick' wax flange with integral plastic flange, flange down - after cleaning the old wax. I lined up and carefully seated the toilet, sat on the toilet for a few minutes, and snugged up the bolts. Couple of small shims at the front and it's nice and secure.

Now I flushed the toilet. The bowl fills to almost overflowing and the bowl is clogged. Water is flowing out nicely from under the base. Plunging gently clears the clog. Flushed multiple times afterwards - no leaks. No clogs.

I don't want to leave this - if there is another clog, it will leak again.

I searched this forum and didn't see negative comments about wax seals with horns, but I'm thinking this could be the problem. Thoughts? I'm thinking a double layer of standard wax rings to be sure.

The flange is mostly at or slightly above finished floor, with one side slightly below. The toilet is securely seated and closet bolts nice and snug.

How can I test to see if maybe there is a crack in the drain near the flange? Could there be a toilet defect somehow? What would I be looking for? Have I missed anything?

Thanks for your help.

Steve

 

[Terry]

If the flange is a bit high on one side, then sometimes tall wax with horn is too much. That's why I set it down without wax first to get a feel for how it sits first. Then I lift the bowl, drop the wax down and do a final set. If the bowl doesn't drop down all the way, then I assume the horn on the wax is a problem. I have lot's of wax on the truck, so a mistake isn't a huge deal for parts.

Did you look in the trapway on the low end? Could there be something lodged there preventing a smooth siphon of the bowl?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Now I flushed the toilet. The bowl fills to almost overflowing and the bowl is clogged. Water is flowing out nicely from under the base.

I would tend to think that would indicate a clog below the toilet. But others have different thoughts. I am not a plumber

If the problem really is clogging in the toilet, I would replace the toilet. The newer good toilets seldom clog. What is this "newer" toilet?

If you are going to continue using a plunger, consider a waxless seal. Plunging into a clogged soil pipe will usually blow out wax. When you lifted the toilet, did you see that the wax had been blown out?

Also, if you use wax, do not insert shims after you have dropped the toilet. Instead "dry fit"; position shims to avoid rocking before you lay down the wax..

If you add shims after laying the toilet onto the wax, you decompress the wax, and rocking to know if you need shims involves de-compressing wax too.

 

[Mr Fixit eh]

If the flange is a bit high on one side, then sometimes tall wax with horn is too much. That's why I set it down without wax first to get a feel for how it sits first. Then I lift the bowl, drop the wax down and do a final set. If the bowl doesn't drop down all the way, then I assume the horn on the wax is a problem. I have lot's of wax on the truck, so a mistake isn't a huge deal for parts.

Did you look in the trapway on the low end? Could there be something lodged there preventing a smooth siphon of the bowl?

Thanks, Terry. I can't get back for a few days. I'll check trap way then.

How does the plastic horn make it's seal? I'm wondering if water is working up between the horn and the flange.

 

[Mr Fixit eh]

I would tend to think that would indicate a clog below the toilet. But others have different thoughts. I am not a plumber

If the problem really is clogging in the toilet, I would replace the toilet. The newer good toilets seldom clog. What is this "newer" toilet?

If you are going to continue using a plunger, consider a waxless seal. Plunging into a clogged soil pipe will usually blow out wax. When you lifted the toilet, did you see that the wax had been blown out?

Also, if you use wax, do not insert shims after you have dropped the toilet. Instead "dry fit"; position shims to avoid rocking before you lay down the wax..

If you add shims after laying the toilet onto the wax, you decompress the wax, and rocking to know if you need shims involves de-compressing wax too.

Hi Reach4,
I'm wondering how the soil pipe could be clogged when the toilet flushed prior to removing and resetting the toilet?

Didn't notice wax blow out, but I wasn't looking for that

Good tip in shims. Hadn't thought about that.

 

[Reach4]

I'm wondering how the soil pipe could be clogged when the toilet flushed prior to removing and resetting the toilet?

Similarly, I am wondering how the wax blows out due to pressure from plunging if there is an open 3 inch pipe below.

My thought on the soil pipe clogging is there being a partial blockage downstream a bit. Maybe that impedes air letting pressure build. Maybe the space before the clog fills with water after a few flushes with not a lot of time between.

I used to think that a toilet over an open soil pipe would not leak water, even with no wax, and the wax was there pretty much to stop gases. I was mistaken, I now know. Many times it would leak water.

 

[Jadnashua]

First, once you set the toilet down, you must set it into the wax with the shims already in their proper positions as if the toilet rocks, then rocks back and then you shim it, the wax is not a spring, and can leave a gap. SO, it's set it dry, determine where shims need to go, pull the toilet, add the wax, and then set the toilet down onto them, press the toilet down with your body weight, and then tighten up the bolts. Once you've determined all is good, you should also caulk around the front 3/4'ers of the toilet to help hold it in place and prevent crud from getting underneath it.

If there's a partial clog part way down the line, you might be able to flush, and if you wait long enough to flush again, it may never back up. Flushing more often can overwhelm the partially clogged line so that it backs up.

 

[Mr Fixit eh]

As I think about this, I remember that as I was working on the drain I could see 'water' about a foot below the flange - I didn't think anything of it at the time. This toilet has sat unused for quite a while, so I will enquire tomorrow about the history. My guess is there was a clog that never got fully cleared. More fun!

 

[Jadnashua]

Except for the trap, there should only be 'stuff' in the drain line while it is actively draining stuff. Now, it's also not unusual in a long horizontal section for solid waste to not make it all the way to the end upon the first flush...but, with each succeeding flush, it should move further down the line to its ultimate end point. The things that generally causes problems are:
- improper slope, especially back slope or dips in the line...there may not be enough flushing action to get solids through that low point so they accumulate
- roots
- crushed lines
- improper joints that have rough spots that can catch debris along the way