Cycle Stop Valves - CSV125 vs CSV1A For Residential

Users who are viewing this thread

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Hello Everyone -

This is likely a question for valveman but others may be able to chime in as well.

From a design perspective, what are the main differences between the CSV125 and CSV1A?

It appears the 1 A is metal construction, adjustable PSI, much bigger gpm tolerances and is installed differently than the 125.

That said, is there any major drawback to using the 125 for a simple residential well serving two houses so long as a fixed PSI isn’t an issue? Is there a substantial difference in durability or performance?

Our particular setup is a 2HP 10gpm submersible (non-vfd) set at 440’, 360’ static water level. Plan to install a 10 gal amtrol wx-104. I assume a 50PSI CSV would be used with a 40-60 pressure switch?

I also noticed all your kits seem to use stainless for the pressure switch piping. Is this recommended due to lead free brass these days?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
Where does the water tee off between the two houses? The CSV must be before that.

Also, what altitude differences are there in the two houses and where the CSV is? You might want a 55/75 PSI pressure switch if there is significant altitude or long service pipes. You can adjust a 40/60 to 55/75.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
If you are sure your water level is 360', then the CSV125 will work as good as the CSV1A. If your water level is 325' or less you will need the CSV1A because the back pressure will exceed 150 PSI. The CSV125 also doesn't last as long if you have sand, iron, or anything in the water. Other than that they work the same way. Yes with that tank and a 40/60 switch you would want the CSV12550-1 or the CSV1A.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Thank you both very much!

The second house is not built yet. Still likely a few years out, but I’d say probably not much more than 20’ elevation distance between the two, and both runs are likely 120’ or so. I ran 1” ID polypipe, drop pipe is 1-1/4” so I recall my losses being about 5psi. Our house is a 1 bed 1 bath and we are very water conscious, but can’t speak for our future neighbor.

CSV / pressure tank are all planned before the tee.

We measured the static level at 360’ and then the well driller did the same later. Unless it has changed significantly over the winter, I’d think we are still safely below 325’. Is this simply because wth less head the pressure goes up?

There is definitely sand in our water, but we need to run a lot more water through it before plumbing this in. I’d say we are only at a few thousand gallons if that. Also not sure how well developed it was. Our neighbor gets mica shist but her well is shallow and low flow, probably a different vein. At least that’s what our driller thought.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
A 10 GPM, 2HP can build 290 PSI. The CSV125 can only handle 150 PSI. So the pump has to be drawing from at least 323' to eat up the extra 140 PSI before it gets to the CSV. But if you have sand it is a no brainer to get the CSV1A.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
I had a follow up question come up about pressure tank drawdown and how the CSV interacts with the tank. If this is explained elsewhere please feel free to redirect me or ignore this.

I understand that pre-charged tanks have about 70/30% air to water, so the effective capacity is about 30% the tank size. This means a 10 gallon tank really provides just over 3 gallons, a 30 gallon around 10, and so on... As I understand, a CSV works by adjusting the GPM flow to meet real-time demands, so if you use a few sources (flush toilet, wash hands) the pump stays on at the required flow rate. If, however, the use is spaced out throughout a day, is it correct to say the pressure tank size then becomes the key factor to number of pump cycles? For example, if one were to flush a 1gpf toilet, that’s about 1 cycle per 3 flushes w/ 10gal tank, or 1 cycle per 10 flushes w/ 30gal. Is that approximately correct?

Now I understand that when taking a shower/bath/using a hose/any longer water use, the pump is likely to cycle regardless and the CSV will keep it from cycling multiple times and at constant pressure, right? It seems this is the other area where the CSV really shines.

I guess I’m basically trying to figure out if there are diminishing returns for increased tank size when using a CSV strictly in terms of pump cycles? I get you lose the constant water pressure, which is definitely a downside.

As for pressure switch settings, is it fair to say that having a bigger cut off range of say 30-60psi vs 40-60 psi will result in 33% less pump cycles? Or does that change with a CSV? Again the downside being even worse pressure swings...

I’m sorry for dragging this out. I like understanding how systems work, and have been accused of overthinking things in the past... hopefully it can serve others as well.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Yes you are overthinking things. But that is what makes you smart enough to understand the benefits of a Cycle Stop Valve. With a small tank, the CSV is more of a demand type system. Yes it will cycle more for small uses, but it will cycle less for longer term uses. For intermittent uses the CSV and small tank causes the same number of cycles as a system without a CSV using a large tank . But the CSV and small tank greatly reduce the cycling for longer term uses of water. Toilets are rarely flushed alone. There is usually hand washing or showers started within a short time of flushing, so flushing doesn't cause a cycle all by itself. And flushing multiple times only causes one pump cycle, even it you flush a hundred times in a row. So unless you flush, wait more than two minutes and flush again more than 100 times a day, you have nothing to worry about.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Thank you very much for that explanation. I decided on the 10 gallon tank as you originally recommended.

What are your thoughts on putting a sediment filter before the pressure tank/switch? Seems like the danger is if it ever were to clog completely, it could burn out the pump. What about putting the sediment filter between the pressure switch and the tank?

Anyone have experience with the low water cut off pressure switches? Any drawbacks?
 
Last edited:

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Low pressure cut off switches are a nuisance unless you have a weak well. Even then a Cycle Sensor is better for Dry Well protection and comes back on when the power does. Low pressure switches have to be reset every time power comes back on.

Best to filter after the pressure tank/pressure switch. Just sand won't completely clog so, can be filtered before the pressure switch/tank. But when using a CSV the filter will be under much more pressure before the CSV than after.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Again, thank you so much. Your knowledge is like a well... it's never ending.

We've got 100' of water, 18gpm well with a 10gpm pump so I think we're pretty safe. I didn't think about the CSV pressure before vs after the tank - probably exceeds most filter housings, and higher likelihood of developing a leak. Out of curiosity, what happens when a CSV fails? Is it designed to specifically fail open or closed? I assume pressure switches fail in the "off" position to protect the pump and lines.
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
Rarely is the back pressure of a pump higher than the rating for the filter, but that is something that needs to be checked. As long as your pipe is rated for the pressure, which it nearly always is or higher, the increased back pressure isn't more likely to develop a leak. IF a CSV fails, it is nearly always in the open position, which just means you pump is going to cycle on/off until you fix the CSV. Pressure switches can fail either open or closed. Open and your pump just won't start, Closed and you need a pressure relief valve to pop off and let enough water out to keep the pump/motor cool.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Interesting. Now that you mention it, I was thinking of plumbing the well house with 160 PSI poly pipe since I have a spool on hand. I figured with no head, 160 psi would be plenty but didn't think about the added pressure of the CSV. I have an extra stick of schd 80 pvc I could use instead. I know it's irrational, but I just hate the idea of using MEK solvent and pvc cement in my drinking water supply line, but I'd take it over a pipe bursting.

Good to know about the CSV. Good design points there. I guess if it failed "closed" it would still deliver 1gpm and not jeopardize the pump though.

I can't believe that about pressure switches. Seems like a major liability. Where does said relief valve usually go? When it blows does the pump just run til someone notices? I wouldn't want it in the well vault since it would potentially flood all the electronics, but obviously wouldn't want it in the house either. Could plumb it so it exits out the top of the vault above grade somewhere, or put a float switch of some sort in-line with the pump controller to prevent a flood.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,530
Reaction score
3,495
Points
113
Location
IL
Interesting. Now that you mention it, I was thinking of plumbing the well house with 160 PSI poly pipe since I have a spool on hand. I figured with no head, 160 psi would be plenty but didn't think about the added pressure of the CSV.
The maximum pressure at the well house will be less than the (("shut-off pressure" of the pump) - (the static head))
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
160# pipe is fine. Yes the CSV will still pass 1 GPM, enough to keep the pump cool, even if it failed in the closed position. Pressure switches are a liability. That is why a pressure relief valve is recommended. The PRV can go anywhere after the CSV. When a PRV does pop off many people get their basement or vault flooded. It is best to plumb the PRV outside and in a place you can see it. If water is coming out of the PRV it is a high pressure alarm and seeing the water is your alert.
 

Zane Bridgers

Member
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
Northern New Mexico - Climate Zone 5A
Excellent. And what PSI PRV would you recommend for a 40/60 pressure switch? Is 75 PSI safe? Do you just plumb it onto a tee somewhere along your supply line? I was thinking I could just put it in the mechanical room and drain into the nearby laundry stand pipe.

As for the small pressure tanks, I see in your pside-kick kits they are usually oriented vertically, however the tank tee I have is designed for a horizontal connection. Should I use an elbow or just as effective to rotate the whole pressure switch/gauge assembly? I want the tank oriented vertically to reduce rubbing of the bladder.

Speaking of, I got a tank on eBay new. What the seller failed to mention was new, as in never used, but manufactured in 2004. It has the plastic threaded connector in it, but I'm concerned about the possibility of the bladder drying out and losing its elasticity in that time. Is this a warranted concern?
 

Valveman

Cary Austin
Staff member
Messages
13,076
Reaction score
882
Points
113
Location
Lubbock, Texas
Website
cyclestopvalves.com
The prv can go anywhere after the CSV. Little 4.5 gallon size tanks can be mounted sideways or anyway you want. Larger tanks need to stick up or down as they are too heavy to stick out sideways. What brand and size tank do you have?
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks