Help with Cycle Stop Valve CSV125

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Svavanesov

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Ok, bear with me please.
Backstory, about 3 weeks ago:
Upgraded well pump to 15gpm, 1.5HP (15FA15S4-2W230) had a CSV125-60-1 (mfr. in 2021) installed about 5-10' below the pitless, and my existing 32 gallon tank adjusted for 50-70 psi with bladder set to about 48 psi. Pump is about 80-100' deep in a 120' well, with well yielding about 25 gpm. Pipe is 1" poly pipe, about 25-30' of pipe from pitless to well tank, no or little elevation change, with 3 elbows in poly pipe visible, possibly 1 more buried.

The CSV was only holding about 55/56 PSI (at 7-8 gpm) at the pressure tank but I figured because it was installed about 5-10 feet below pitless and variation in the valve that this was acceptable. Then I noticed that with a 7.5 gpm irrigation zone running and taking a shower (~ 2 gpm mixed hot/cold) that the pressure wasn't as good. Checking the pressure gauge at the pump showed it at around 51 psi and sometimes 50 or even 49 psi.

Called the installer, had him come out today and we tried a bunch of stuff and couldn't land on anything.

Today, we observed the same behavior described above, pressure not maintained at 55 when demand approaches ~9-10 gpm.
* Keep in mind, irrigation and whole house water share about only 5' of 3/4 copper after the pressure tank, then the irrigation tees off on 3/4" pex with a 200 micron sediment filter, and the whole house goes to 3/4" pex and a 25 micron 10" whole house filter and branches out all over the house.

We moved the existing CSV up, about 2 feet below the pitless and were able to see the maintained pressure at about 57-58 psi but it would still drop ~5 psi when demand would go from ~8 to ~10 gpm.

We then swapped the CSV out for a straight coupling and ran the irrigation and shower (~ 10 gpm). The tank was able to keep up and would cycle on at 50 psi for about 1-2 min before shutting off at 70 psi. Then repeat. Typical.

We then installed a different CSV125-60-1 (mfr. in 2022) and saw similar but also other unexpected behavior.
At 8 gpm, pressure would climb to 67 fairly quickly, then slowly reach 70 and shut the pump off. Drain the tank, and repeat. Did the same thing with shower only (at 2 gpm). At this point we were at a loss and the well guy left and we said we would reassess and see what else can be done.

After he left, I ran the water and timed the behavior under various conditions.

(all below time deltas are from previous delta, not cumulative).

Irrigation running (~8 gpm), tank drains, then pump kicks on at 50 psi
+ 1 min - 60 psi
+ 4 min - 67 psi and holding
Turn on shower @ ~2 gpm (9.5-10 gpm total).
+ 30 sec - drops to 62 psi (Then I notice that the pipe and pressure gauge shudders briefly)
+ 20 sec - 70 psi and pump shuts off
+ 40 sec - Tank draws down 70-50 psi. Pump turns on.
+ 1.5 min - Rises to 56 psi. Holds at 56 with ~9.0-9.5 gpm (slightly lower due to lower pressure).
Turn off shower, Irrigation only (~8 gpm)
+ 20 sec - 58 psi.
+ 1.5 min - 62 psi. Holds at 62 psi.
Open other irrigation zones to max out flow. (~10 gpm).
+ 30 sec - 58 psi.
+ 30 sec - 57 psi
+ 30 sec - 56 psi
+ 1.5 min - 55 psi. (Now at ~9.5 gpm due to lower pressure). Holds at 55 psi.
Shut off extra zones and only leave (~8 gpm zone on)
+ 20 sec - 57 psi
+ 1 min - 60 psi
+ 2 min - 62 psi. Holds at 62 psi.
Irrigation shuts off (0 gpm demand)
+ 15 sec - Tank fills from 62-70 psi and pump shuts off (this is too quick, no?).
Turn on irrigation again (~8 gpm)
+ 45 sec - tank draws down from 70-50 psi, pump turns on.
+ 30 sec - 56 psi
+ 45 sec - 58 psi
+ 1.5 min - 60 psi
+ 2 min - 62 psi. Holds at 62.
Turn on shower (9-10 gpm)
+ 30 sec - 56 psi
+ 1 min - 55 psi
+ 2 min - hair over 54 psi. holds here.
Turn off shower. Irrigation still running (~8 gpm)
+ 30 sec - 57 psi
+ 30 sec - 59 psi
+ 30 sec - 60 psi
+ 2 min - 62 psi. holds at 62.
Irrigation turns off (0 gpm demand)
+ 15 sec - Tank fills from 62-70 psi and pump shuts off.

I'm not an expert in plumbing, pumps, fluid dynamics, but I can read and comprehend things (for the most part).
From everything I've read, and I've read a lot,
There shouldn't be a 5+ PSI difference when going from 8-10 gpm. 1" Poly only drops about 2.8 psi per 100 ft of pipe @ 10 gpm due to friction loss.
Also, when demand is turned off, it's supposed to fill the tank at 1 gpm and is filling and shutting off too quickly.

I'd love if the CSV could maintain the 62 psi at various demands. But the plan is to eventually upsize the mainline to irrigation and put out 10-12 gpm on each zone. I upgraded the pump so that I could do that and maintain enough water for home use. That pump at that depth should have no issue putting out 15-17 gpm from what I understand.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Also posted in CSV forums.
 
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Svavanesov

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This morning, with shower running (~ 2 gpm)
Tank draws down to 50 psi, pump turns on.
+ 1.5 min - climbs to 67 psi fairly steadily and slows down as it continues to climb higher
+ 30 sec - hits 70 psi, pump shuts off.

This doesn't seem right
 

WorthFlorida

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I cannot answer anything the CSV, hopefully Cary will respond but on the irrigation side, what size is the area you are trying to irrigate and why is it you're trying to increase the amount of water for irrigation. I'm asking because there is a mine set that more water is better, however, for irrigation it is not. The trend now is for low volume watering with longer irrigation times to minimize runoff (chemicals) and excess water lost.
 

Svavanesov

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I cannot answer anything the CSV, hopefully Cary will respond but on the irrigation side, what size is the area you are trying to irrigate and why is it you're trying to increase the amount of water for irrigation. I'm asking because there is a mine set that more water is better, however, for irrigation it is not. The trend now is for low volume watering with longer irrigation times to minimize runoff (chemicals) and excess water lost.
Irrigation was installed as part of a greater Lanscaping project but the landscapers did it themselves and didn't do a good job. Didn't account for flow, pressure, proper spacing, etc. I basically have 7 zones for approx 10-12,000 sq. ft. It was either pay $3k+ to "fix" the irrigation or $3k to up-size water supply to existing irrigation. Whether I chose the right or wrong way forward, this is where I am now.
 

Valveman

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A 15 GPM, 1.5HP builds 182 PSI. The CSV125 is only rated for 150 PSI max. The CSV can take the extra pressure, but it makes the minimum flow more like 2.5-3 GPM instead of 1-2 GPM. Turn your pressure switch up to shut off at 75, as the less differential pressure the lower the minimum flow, and it might stay running with a 2 GPM shower.

We make the 60 pound springs put out a couple PSI higher, because you do lose 1 PSI for every 2.31' it is installed below the surface. Holding 55-56 PSI sounds about right for being 15' below surface.

Even a short piece of 3/4 pipe can cause some loss as the flow increases. Filters cause even more loss. Where is your pressure gauge in relation to the tank and filters?
 

Svavanesov

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A 15 GPM, 1.5HP builds 182 PSI. The CSV125 is only rated for 150 PSI max. The CSV can take the extra pressure, but it makes the minimum flow more like 2.5-3 GPM instead of 1-2 GPM. Turn your pressure switch up to shut off at 75, as the less differential pressure the lower the minimum flow, and it might stay running with a 2 GPM shower.
There's a 75 psi pressure relief valve at the tank. I wouldn't mind the pump cycling at the lower flow as much if it was able to keep the steady pressure at over 8 gpm. My concern is mostly here. At 8 gpm it holds 62 psi. At 10 gpm it drops to ~55 psi.
We make the 60 pound springs put out a couple PSI higher, because you do lose 1 PSI for every 2.31' it is installed below the surface. Holding 55-56 PSI sounds about right for being 15' below surface.
The valve was moved up to just 2' below the pitless adapter, which is pretty much the same elevation as the pressure tank in my basement (the pitless adapter, that is).
Even a short piece of 3/4 pipe can cause some loss as the flow increases. Filters cause even more loss. Where is your pressure gauge in relation to the tank and filters?
The pressure gauge is right at the base of the tank, where the 1" poly well line comes in to the basement and 3/4" copper goes out to the irrigation and house. The copper is after the pressure gauge.
 

Valveman

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Take the cap off the pressure relief and tighten the adjustment so it doesn't leak when you turn the pressure switch up to shut off at 75. The piltess and all those insert fittings in the 1" poly probably have a few ponds of loss as the flow increases, which the CSV is seeing and reacting to. Could also be the gauge as no two ever read the same anyway. The 62 PSI is from the higher pressure spring, but that only works at low flow as 58 PSI is more realistic as the flow increases.
 

Svavanesov

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Take the cap off the pressure relief and tighten the adjustment so it doesn't leak when you turn the pressure switch up to shut off at 75. The piltess and all those insert fittings in the 1" poly probably have a few ponds of loss as the flow increases, which the CSV is seeing and reacting to. Could also be the gauge as no two ever read the same anyway. The 62 PSI is from the higher pressure spring, but that only works at low flow as 58 PSI is more realistic as the flow increases.
So from 8 gpm to 10 gpm the pitless, 30 ft of pipe, and 3 elbows would account for 5-6 psi drop? That's about the equivalent of 200 ft. of 1" poly pipe at 10 gpm. An elbow is equivalent to 15ft of pipe, conservatively, no?

Also, I read and was told when I called that:
1) The CSV125 doesn't drop in pressure at higher flow like the CSV1A. That seems to not be the case from what I'm seeing and what you're saying.
2) At high enough demand the CSV is wide open and doesn't restrict flow at all. If that's the case, then why does the valve output at lower pressure when the demand increases from 8 gpm to 10 gpm? Will it output at even lower pressure at 12 gpm? 14 gpm? At what point does it become "wide open" and not restrict the pump?
3) When demand ceases, the valve only lets 1 gpm through, slowly filling the rest of the tank. That's also not what I'm seeing.

Please help me understand, because I thought I was getting a more reliable and longer lasting equivalent (or close to) to a VFD that could maintain steady and consistent pressure at various flow rates without cycling the pump.
 
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Valveman

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I don't know what to tell you but something is causing more restriction at 10 GPM than 8 GPM. I would guess the pressure will drop even further as the flow increases to more than 10 GPM, as that is the way friction loss works. But that would prove it is friction loss in the pipe, as the CSV is trying to maintain 60 PSI on the discharge of the valve.

If the sensor for a VFD was installed in the same location, I am sure it would do the same thing. But if the VFD sensor was installed at the tank, the pump would be able to speed up to make up for the friction loss. The same thing would happen if you installed the CSV at the tank instead of in the well.

The CSV is longer lasting and more reliable than a VFD. Plus it only cost 89 bucks. Sorry I don' make a 70 PSI valve that will fit in the well. But if you are unhappy with a couple PSI loss you can send it back for a full refund. After a few years of paying for replacement VFD's, a couple PSI loss won't seem so important. You losing more than that through the filters.
 

John Gayewski

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I'll just say reading through this I don't really know how anyone could tell the difference in pressure from 55 to 60psi in any scenario without a gauge. A variation on pressure that high wouldn't make a lick of difference would be unnoticeable and I'm not really sure what the problem is.

Dropping from 25psi to 20 could be noticeable becuse that would be the very low end of fixture design. But when your in premium operating range I guess I can't see the issue. I didn't read anything that seemed out of the ordinary.
 

Svavanesov

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I don't know what to tell you but something is causing more restriction at 10 GPM than 8 GPM. I would guess the pressure will drop even further as the flow increases to more than 10 GPM, as that is the way friction loss works. But that would prove it is friction loss in the pipe, as the CSV is trying to maintain 60 PSI on the discharge of the valve.
I hope I'm not coming across as hostile, that's not my intention. I'm just trying to better understand my situation. For the pressure drop, let's take the CSV out of the equation for now.

Any ideas what may be causing a 6 psi drop when going from 8 gpm to 10 gpm? From the pitless, it's a run of about 30 ft of 1" poly to where it enters the home through the concrete foundation. At that point there are 3 plastic elbows and about 5-6 more feet of 1" poly, then a 1" Insert x 3/4" MPT adapter for the tank tee, and on that end of the tee is where the pressure gauge is.

At 8 gpm, 1" poly pipe loses 4.2 psi per 100 ft, and at 10 gpm it's 6.3 psi.

Screenshot_20220501-214554.png


Each plastic elbow is equivalent to 6 ft of pipe.
And I don't know the adapter, but let's say 6 ft as well.

Screenshot_20220501-214627.png


I would calculate:
At 8 gpm: 4.2(0.30+4(.06)+0.06) = 2.52 psi
At 10 gpm: 6.3(0.6) = 3.78 psi
Delta = 1.26 psi, but I'm seeing about 6 psi.

I just can't wrap my head around it.

Can anything downstream of the pressure gauge effect the pressure at that point? No, right?
If the sensor for a VFD was installed in the same location, I am sure it would do the same thing. But if the VFD sensor was installed at the tank, the pump would be able to speed up to make up for the friction loss. The same thing would happen if you installed the CSV at the tank instead of in the well.
That is also another option. My installer only did the CSV125 but I could do the 1A myself. How well would the CSV1A perform in this same situation? I understand it has the pressure swings at different flow rates. If let's say I set this valve for 60 psi at 10 gpm, what pressure would it hold at 2 gpm? At 12 or 14 gpm? And can it handle the 15 gpm 1.5 HP pump since you mentioned earlier that the CSV125 has a max of 150 psi?

Or better yet, can I install the CSV125 in the basement? I know it's not recommended, but how much water does it actually discharge and how often? I don't even see where the water would come out of It's an unfinished concrete floor, not a big deal. Or I can just put a pan under it if it's not too much. And this would help a little with the lower not holding pressure too, right?

The CSV is longer lasting and more reliable than a VFD. Plus it only cost 89 bucks. Sorry I don' make a 70 PSI valve that will fit in the well. But if you are unhappy with a couple PSI loss you can send it back for a full refund. After a few years of paying for replacement VFD's, a couple PSI loss won't seem so important. You losing more than that through the filters.
A 70 psi valve would be nice. I really don't want a VFD. The last thing I need is to add complicated and sensitive electronics to a simple system. Hence why I ended up going with the CSV.
 
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Reach4

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I had suspected your water was deeper.
 

Valveman

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Well I don't mean to be dismissive either. I will help anyway I can. Just in the last 30 years the problems with any CSV has been extremely rare. So much so that I immediately start looking for the real problem, because it is rarely the CSV. But having said that and standing at the test pit this morning, I am seeing a 3 PSI difference from 8 to 10 GPM with the 60 PSI valve. The 50 PSI valves are not doing that. They hold 50 PSI as the flow increases as they should. Must be an issue with some of the 60 PSI springs I got during the pandemic. I thought I was testing often enough, but apparently not. It is such a minor pressure loss that it took someone with eagle eyes to see it. Lol!

Add that 3 PSI loss to the 1.5 extra friction loss and I can see 5 PSI difference. As was said earlier, most people won't notice a 3-5 PSI difference as the flow increases.

Your pump being able to build 180+ PSI is what causes the CSV125-1, which is rated for 150 PSI max, to have more like a 3 GPM minimum. Like I said and just tested, turning up the pressure switch to shut off at 75 PSI should keep the pump from cycling when using a 2 GPM shower. Might also have to turn up the pressure relief valve to keep it from leaking.

It will take me some time, but I will test some springs as see if I can find you one that doesn't lose 3 PSI. Check with me in a couple of weeks. Thanks. Cary 806 885 4445
 

Svavanesov

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Well I don't mean to be dismissive either. I will help anyway I can. Just in the last 30 years the problems with any CSV has been extremely rare. So much so that I immediately start looking for the real problem, because it is rarely the CSV. But having said that and standing at the test pit this morning, I am seeing a 3 PSI difference from 8 to 10 GPM with the 60 PSI valve. The 50 PSI valves are not doing that. They hold 50 PSI as the flow increases as they should. Must be an issue with some of the 60 PSI springs I got during the pandemic. I thought I was testing often enough, but apparently not. It is such a minor pressure loss that it took someone with eagle eyes to see it. Lol!

Add that 3 PSI loss to the 1.5 extra friction loss and I can see 5 PSI difference. As was said earlier, most people won't notice a 3-5 PSI difference as the flow increases.

Your pump being able to build 180+ PSI is what causes the CSV125-1, which is rated for 150 PSI max, to have more like a 3 GPM minimum. Like I said and just tested, turning up the pressure switch to shut off at 75 PSI should keep the pump from cycling when using a 2 GPM shower. Might also have to turn up the pressure relief valve to keep it from leaking.

It will take me some time, but I will test some springs as see if I can find you one that doesn't lose 3 PSI. Check with me in a couple of weeks. Thanks. Cary 806 885 4445

That makes sense. I just couldn't get the numbers to work otherwise.

That being said, I wondered before going with the 125 if the 1A would make more sense and am hoping you can let me know.

I need to understand the specs a little better.

csv1a_specs.gif


1. If I set the 1A to 60 psi at 10 gpm, I should see ~68 psi at 2 gpm and ~57 psi at 15 gpm, based on the pressure falloff?
2. The max differential pressure of 125; does that mean with the pump making up to 183 psi, the 1A does not provide more than 125 psi of back pressure and I would need to set the output to at least ~ 58 psi at lower flow to keep the pump from cycling? Am I understanding that right?
3. Where does the friction loss of the valve come in to play? Is that subtracted from the outlet pressure as well? At 10 gpm am I losing 5 psi to falloff and ~5 more psi to friction loss?
4. Would it still pass through 1 gpm with no demand or more like 2-3 gpm because of the higher pump specs?
5. Can it be installed in any orientation?
6. Bottom line is, will it keep the pump from cycling at 2-15 gpm while keeping the outlet pressure between 55-70 psi?

That being said, I also had some questions earlier about mounting the CSV125 in my basement.
1. If I could get a 60 psi valve that doesn't reduce pressure up to 15 gpm, that would be ideal.
2. I understand it discharges water, but how much and how often is typical? And I would assume this would be highly pressurized as well and shoot out of the valve somewhere. I couldn't see anywhere on the valve that would allow water to be released when inspecting it.

Thanks again for all your help. And if it's easier to just discuss this over the phone, I can always call as well.
 

John Gayewski

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Well I don't mean to be dismissive either. I will help anyway I can. Just in the last 30 years the problems with any CSV has been extremely rare. So much so that I immediately start looking for the real problem, because it is rarely the CSV. But having said that and standing at the test pit this morning, I am seeing a 3 PSI difference from 8 to 10 GPM with the 60 PSI valve. The 50 PSI valves are not doing that. They hold 50 PSI as the flow increases as they should. Must be an issue with some of the 60 PSI springs I got during the pandemic. I thought I was testing often enough, but apparently not. It is such a minor pressure loss that it took someone with eagle eyes to see it. Lol!

Add that 3 PSI loss to the 1.5 extra friction loss and I can see 5 PSI difference. As was said earlier, most people won't notice a 3-5 PSI difference as the flow increases.

Your pump being able to build 180+ PSI is what causes the CSV125-1, which is rated for 150 PSI max, to have more like a 3 GPM minimum. Like I said and just tested, turning up the pressure switch to shut off at 75 PSI should keep the pump from cycling when using a 2 GPM shower. Might also have to turn up the pressure relief valve to keep it from leaking.

It will take me some time, but I will test some springs as see if I can find you one that doesn't lose 3 PSI. Check with me in a couple of weeks. Thanks. Cary 806 885 4445
In defense of your spring supplier I've never saw a spring or read and specs for springs that indicate spring making is an exact science. Actually the opposite they most indicate a range and even then it's variable. I'll just add in not a spring expert this is just my experience.
 

Valveman

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In defense of your spring supplier I've never saw a spring or read and specs for springs that indicate spring making is an exact science. Actually the opposite they most indicate a range and even then it's variable. I'll just add in not a spring expert this is just my experience.
We give them 5% plus or minus, which is 3 PSI. We usually make them err on the high side of 63 PSI. But whatever pressure spring is in there the pressure should stay almost the same from 2 GPM to as much as the pump can produce. It is a small pressure variance and I am surprised anyone could even see it. But I am testing springs to see what has changed.
 

Valveman

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That makes sense. I just couldn't get the numbers to work otherwise.

That being said, I wondered before going with the 125 if the 1A would make more sense and am hoping you can let me know.

I need to understand the specs a little better.

View attachment 83188

1. If I set the 1A to 60 psi at 10 gpm, I should see ~68 psi at 2 gpm and ~57 psi at 15 gpm, based on the pressure falloff?
2. The max differential pressure of 125; does that mean with the pump making up to 183 psi, the 1A does not provide more than 125 psi of back pressure and I would need to set the output to at least ~ 58 psi at lower flow to keep the pump from cycling? Am I understanding that right?
3. Where does the friction loss of the valve come in to play? Is that subtracted from the outlet pressure as well? At 10 gpm am I losing 5 psi to falloff and ~5 more psi to friction loss?
4. Would it still pass through 1 gpm with no demand or more like 2-3 gpm because of the higher pump specs?
5. Can it be installed in any orientation?
6. Bottom line is, will it keep the pump from cycling at 2-15 gpm while keeping the outlet pressure between 55-70 psi?

That being said, I also had some questions earlier about mounting the CSV125 in my basement.
1. If I could get a 60 psi valve that doesn't reduce pressure up to 15 gpm, that would be ideal.
2. I understand it discharges water, but how much and how often is typical? And I would assume this would be highly pressurized as well and shoot out of the valve somewhere. I couldn't see anywhere on the valve that would allow water to be released when inspecting it.

Thanks again for all your help. And if it's easier to just discuss this over the phone, I can always call as well.
Yes that is the way the CSV1A works. Being adjustable you can turn it up until you get the pressure at whatever flow you need. But it does have considerably more friction loss than the CSV125. Friction loss with any CSV is only noticed when trying to get the max flow from the pump. If you never use the max flow, and any zone you run would cause the pump to cycle on and off, then there is probably not enough friction loss in the CSV1A to cause any problems.

The CSV125 doesn't leak until there is a problem. Problems that cause them to leak are sand or something slimy in the water like an iron bacteria. When the do leak they start out small and can get to spraying if not taken care of.

However, with the size pump you have, moving either CSV to the house will put the 1" poly and fittings under the 185 PSI that pump can build. It is not too much pressure for the CSV1A, and It is not going to destroy the CSV125, but the hose clamps need to be doubled and tight.

Let me have a few days to test springs and I will get you another to try. And thanks for bringing this little problem to my attention. Nobody else, including me has noticed in well over a year. Lol!
 
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