14" Rough-In Toilet Choices

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by cgskiking, Sep 30, 2009.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,187
    Location:
    New England
    On a 14" rough-in, adding that 14-1/8" is still over 28" - more than he found acceptable. On the Totos that use the Unifit, the SAME toilet is used, only the adapter changes, so your scheme doesn't work - the toilet always projects the SAME amount into the room, regardless of the (standard 10, 12, or 14") rough-in.
  2. Colloquor

    Colloquor New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Illinois
    Toto Option for Very Small Bathroom?

    In our upper bathroom, I installed a Toto Drake a few years ago, and love the G-Max flushing system. Our very small lower bathroom has a pre-1975 Eljer 5gpf toilet that has caused endless problems, with not even addressing the water consumption. The bathroom's small size and 14 inch rough makes a purchase a tough one in today's market. The Eljer has a depth of 27 inches. Due to the very small size of the bathroom, and limited access space to the shower entrance (directly across from the bowl), we need to keep the toilet's maximum depth at 28 inches or less, preferably less. Although I know the Toto elongated bowls are shorter than normal, perhaps its best to stick with a round bowl if possible. The depth limitation and the 14 inch rough in are the problems.

    I noted on Toto's website the Drake II round bowl depth is 26 3/8" which would be perfect, but it appears it's only available in the standard 12 inch rough in. Is the Drake II available as special order for a 14 inch rough in? If not, does anyone have any suggestions on other Toto models which make work in this situation? From memory, I know that Toto used to offer the UniFit Rough In Adapter, but I don't know if any of the current Toto models use the UniFit system. I believe these were typically one piece toilets.

    I've been fighting this problem for at least 10 years, and keeping the slow-fllushing and easily-clogged Eljer working as best as can be expected for a nearly 40 year old toilet. And, to try to come up with a viable replacement solution...?? I'd love to stay with Toto, but if any of you much more experienced folks than me have another manufacturer suggestion given the design restrictions for a 1.6gpf toilet (that actually works!), I would sincerely appreciate your advice.

    Thanks.
  3. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,903
    Location:
    New York, NY
    The Drake II's cousin, which is a skirted model that can use the Unifit adapter, is called the Vespin II, and it is elongated. Click for Spec Sheet It's 28 5-16". Don't know if that 1/4" is going to be a deal-breaker for you. (The Carlyle II, which I have on a 10" rough-in on a Unifit, is the same depth.)

    There is no Drake II round bowl, though. There is an original Drake round bowl. But there is no skirted version that would come with the Unifit.

    Your Totos with the round-bowl options these days (original Drake, Promenade at 26-1/8, original Ultramax and/or Supreme, each at 26.5) are all unskirted and thus cannot use the Unifit, with no 14" rough-in version. As mentioned above, the 14" rough-in versions of other manufacturer's toilets, other than the Totos with the Unifit, don't actually pull the toilet back closer to the wall to compensate for the 14" rough-in anyway, and thus wouldn't save you any space. e.g. 31-5/8" on the 14" rough-in Kohler Wellworth, plus 3/4" behind it.

    And when you are talking about trying to keep the toilet depth at less than 28", remember there is space between the tank and the wall. On the round Drake, that's well over an inch on a 12" rough-in. On the Vespin II, it's 3/4"-ish. You really need to measure how far out from the wall you can possibly tolerate, then calculate the toilet dimensions plus the stand-off from the finished wall. (I guess my point is that the space behind the toilet is not uniform -- Toto actually makes a toilet today that has effectively zero inches behind it, and the original Drake is just the opposite with a football field behind it -- so when you're looking at toilet size, you really have to add the size of the unit to the spec distance behind it to know how far it is going to protrude into the room.)
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  4. Winslet_33

    Winslet_33 New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    Japan, Tokoyo
    Toto TSU01W.10 - Toilet Rough in UniFit Adapter for 10" Rough in. Comments about TOTO UniFit 10" Rough in: Didn't think the Toto toilet we wanted was going to work, but the Unifit adapter made the toilet installation fit perfectly.

    TOTO toilets that use the Unifit come standard with the 12"
    You can also use a 10" or the 14" which shifts the bowl 2" in either direction.

    [​IMG]
    10" Unift, 12" Unifit and 14" Unifit adapter
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2012
  5. Colloquor

    Colloquor New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Illinois
    Thanks wjcandee. I know my options are severely limited. At first, I thought my post was deleted, but after reading this thread I realized it was redirected to this thread! The current old round bowl Eljer measures exactly 27 inches from the wall to the front of the bowl. I will look into the Vespin II, as I certainly would like to stay with Toto due to the performance. I just received a call early this morning from the Toto dealer I purchased the Drake from a few years ago (Economy Plumbing Supply in Indianapolis), and the rep said there was no Toto that met my specific requirements as to max. depth. She said the only toilet they offer that meets my depth requirement is a Mansfield Model Alto #125-160 round bowl which has a 14 inch rough in and a total depth from the wall of 27.5 inches. Without researching this toilet, I imagine it would be a very poor substitute for a Toto as it's only $118, and probably is one of those 1.6gpf toilets that require more than one flush, typically plugs, or worse. I believe the 160 is considered a "builder or contractor grade" toilet, and I've read where Terry loves to move them to landfills!

    Here's my big problem: from the wall where the toilet sits, the measurement from the wall to the front lip of the Fiat shower enclosure is only 44.5 inches.

    I will continue to do research on this, and hopefully, will come up with a viable solution. I have no way of changing the layout of the small bathroom, and its floor is all ceramic tile so I'm stuck using whatever will best fit the current dimensions.

    Thank you.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,187
    Location:
    New England
    A Toto that uses the UniFIt adapter typically has 3/4" behind it to the wall. A toilet does not need a space there. You can fudge the setting of a toilet on the flange (or in this case, the adapter) by at least 1/4", and possibly a little more, so you might make it fit. I'd first measure exactly how far it is from the center of the flange to the wall (not the baseboard), then figure out where the toilet would really sit. I have both a Vespin and a Carlyle in my home, and they have been very reliable. Our water tends to eat up the rubber flapper in about 4-years or so. When they start to get soft, instead of sitting flush, the center starts to sink in and eventually it lifts the edges up so it won't seal...then, it's time for a new one. It all depends on your local water supply treatment and how often the toilet is flushed.
  7. Derrick

    Derrick New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    milpitas, ca
    14" rough in (door opening starts at 30.5")

    I'm looking for a TOTO toilet to replace in my master bathroom which has a 14" rough in. The door starts at 30 1/2" The space between the edge of the current bowl and the wall is 8"

    photo.JPG
    The 3 that are in consideration are the Drake elongated CST744E, Vespin II CST474CEFG with 14" unifit adapter, and Drake round CST743E (if I must...).
    Here are the problems with each:

    EcoDrake CST744E - according to specs the toilet is 28" and sits 1 1/8" off the wall. In total that would be 29 1/8" but since this is for a 12" rough in I would have to add another 2" making it a total of 31 1/8". I'm worried that the door will hit the edge of the bowl. Is it possible to "skootch" the toilet an inch back?

    Vespin II CST474CEFG w/ 14" unifit adapter - The water shutoff is 6" left of the center and 4 1/2" off the ground. I've seen that Terry has installed these with 5 1/2" clearance. With the valve knob, my clearance drops to around 5 1/2". I'm wondering if Terry's measurement of 5 1/2" includes the knob or is just from the center of the pipe.

    EcoDrake Round CST743E - I'm a guy and prefer to install an Elongated toilet.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  8. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,362
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    The best options are any of the Toto toilets that use the Unifit adapter. These will not only fit the rough-in space beautifully, they are a very good performing toilet and the skirted design makes them especially attractive.
  9. Derrick

    Derrick New Member

    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    milpitas, ca
    That's the Vespin II CST474CEFG. I should've put with the 14" rough in unifit adapter. But the concern with that was the water shutoff.

    thanks for the reply!
  10. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,362
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    There are ways around that. You could use either an angle valve or elbow that would redirect the supply line parallel to the wall before making the connection to the toilet and of course, you can always cut into the wall and move the the valve. It may also work as it is, just not be as optimum a location as indicated in the installation instructions.
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,156
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    5 1/2" is center to center of the pipe.

    [​IMG]
    Toto Vespin II CST474CEFG with SS114 Softclose seat.

    This was a 13.5" rough with the 14" Unifit.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
  12. benlinus

    benlinus New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Unifit adapter perform's very well. I have TOTO Carroll-ton in my home installed from last few years. According to its design adapter introduces a potential source of clogs since the adapter is PVC. That's works really fine. Gerber DF-21-304 (Ultra Dual Flush/ Pressure Assist) is really a terrible toilet. Unifit adapter really nice to have
  13. lucky blaze

    lucky blaze New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    san francisco, ca
    hello friends of the troubled toilet! so HAPPY to have found you here.

    i need to REPLACE two "victorian style" toilets (pull chain hanging from a wall-mounted box, someone's idea of "quaint", my idea of plumbing-hell) that are 14" rough-ins.
    i see that TOTO is all the rage here but they tell me they have NO TOILETS that are skirted (which will hide the adapter) AND dual-flush which i really want.
    is there ANYTHING out there that can meet my needs?
    thanks so much for any and all suggestions, advice, poetry and consolation.
    what a GREAT website!

    lori, NOT a victorian in san francisco
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,156
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    They do have the Watersense Aquia dual flush in 10" and 12"
    The Watersense 1.28 Guinevere can be made into a 14" with the 14" Unifit.

    Any 12" rough will work on 14", but will be out from the wall 2" more.
  15. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,903
    Location:
    New York, NY
    It's not about skirted "hiding the adapter"; only certain toilets work with the Unifit adapter, and all of those are necessarily skirted. Not all Toto skirted toilets (like the Aquia and Maris, which are both skirted dual-flush toilets) will work with the 14" Unifit. Unskirted toilets use no adapter, and are built at the factory to work with usually a 12" and sometimes a 10" rough-in.

    The following are the Toto toilets that work with a 14" Unifit adapter. All are Watersense 1.28 gallon-per-flush toilets, which may average out to be similar in water consumption to a dual-flush that uses 1.6 on the solids and .9 on the liquids:

    Aimes
    Carlyle II
    Carolina II
    Eco Guinevere
    Eco Lloyd
    Eco Soiree
    Legato
    Pacifica
    Vespin II

    Just google each name to see a picture of it, or try Totousa.com and put the name in the search box on their web site. It isn't the absolutely-easiest thing to navigate, unfortunately.

    As Terry points out, a toilet designed for a 12" rough-in will happily fit on a 14" rough-in. You will just have more space behind the tank than you are probably used to (2" more, to be exact).

    If you really want a dual-flush, Toto makes the best one, called the Aquia.

    They also make a nice looking dual flush called the Maris. You would get the 12" rough-in version of those.

    As long as you would consider putting a 12" rough-in toilet on 14", you also might consider the "Drake II 1G", a version of the Drake II that only uses a single gallon of water for everything. Most reviews I have seen of it have been very positive; it gets the job done with 1 gallon per flush. CST454CUFG (not to be confused with the regular Drake II, CST454CEFG, where the U means ultra-low water consumption and the E means 1.28gpf).

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  16. lucky blaze

    lucky blaze New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    san francisco, ca
    thanks SO much, Terry and wjc, for immediate feedback in this product morass!

    let's narrow the playing field: i do NOT want a two-inch gap behind my toilet. SF experiences enough "shaky ground" without adding instability in the bathroom!
    i am committed to using a 14" adapter so i don't have a free-standing toilet (or one that requires jerry-rigging).
    SO, if i am going with TOTO, i'll be getting a 1.28
    and perhaps, arguably, i would NOT be saving a lot of water going with a dual-flush PLUS i would have to step out of the golden aura of T O T O.
    do ANY other products come close or should i just give up and stay with the champion?

    again, thanks for your guidance. deep appreciation.
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,903
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Thanks for the kind words.

    So you know, there will always be a gap behind a modern floor-mounted, downward-discharge toilet. And it will always be free-standing. Most toilets today are designed to have a gap of between 3/4" to about 1-1/8" behind the toilet when mounted on a rough-in that is exactly as specified (i.e. the rough-in is really 12", not 11.5", which one finds pretty-often).

    The toilets that are assembled by connecting a tank to a bowl are now called "close-coupled" toilets because the tank sits on and is securely connected to the base. (Of course, some are a single casting -- "one piece" toilets.) "Close coupled" is used to differentiate them from the previous style, which involved a tank that mounted on the wall a couple of inches above the toilet base and was connected to it with a pipe. Kind of like your Victorian toilet but mounted just above instead of way up on the wall. I actually have one of those wall-mount tanks on a toilet off of our laundry room -- with a date stamp in it from 1927.

    Just mentioning this because you won't have to jerry-rig anything if you just put the 12" toilet on the 14" rough-in. And it will be just as stable as if it were put on a rough-in that was exactly 12". However, it will have a gap behind it, which may be an issue or not, depending on how it is facing. For example, in my City apartment, the toilet is a 12" rough-in toilet mounted on a 14" rough-in. So there is a gap behind it of about 2-3/4". However, there is a row of mirrored cabinets above the sink and toilet, that protrude forward, so the extra space really isn't noticeable, and I think the architect thought that if the toilet were slid back, the sitting position actually might seem weird. On the other hand, if the toilet is facing sideways as you enter the room, the larger gap might be more noticeable.

    I think you are on the right path with the Watersense skirted toilet with the 14" Unifit. I just didn't want you to be concerned that there was something structurally-improper about mounting a 12" toilet on a 14" rough. It's done all the time, and doesn't make it less stable.
  18. wptski

    wptski Retired Machine Repairman

    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Warren, MI
    I had one of those less than 12" situations but some toilet dimensions would have put it against or through the wall! I went with a 10" rough in just to be safe. I have around 3" space, I think but at least one can easily clean the wall behind it.
  19. Wallijonn

    Wallijonn Member

    Messages:
    147
    Location:
    Arizona
    Exactly how high must the fill valve be to not hit the Vespin II? Spec sheet says 6"

    I doubt I could install it in my master br. since the fill valve is exactly 5" from the floor to the exact center of the knob screw and exactly 5" from CL and a 12" (11+7/8", actual) RI. After looking at all the Toto specs sheets I decided to go with the Kohler K-3811, because it's a one piece elongated and supposedly will fit where a round bowl fits, 28+1/4" from the wall (1/2" wall space, 27+3/4" length). It's CL to the valve is 5+1/8" with the fill valve 5" from the floor, which would seem to be a perfect fit for my needs. I'll be sure to give a review, hoping against hope that it doesn't exhibit the problems you have outline with it's non-linear bowl flush and clogging due to trap pipe right angle outlet.

    My second bathroom, though, has 5" from floor to fill valve centre and a 6" CL, with a 12.75"/13.0" RI (12+3/8" & 12+5/8" RI to the ceramic tile mounlding. Yes, the Briggs toilet is crooked. Wall space 0.75" & 1. I figure I'll have about 1.25" between wall and tank top after I've straightened it.) So it "might" fit. The problem is the valve height from the floor. What's the minimum the Vespin II can accept?

    I'd probably use the 12" RI and hope that the extra space nearest the wall gives me a little more "wiggle" room to position the valve.
    Man, I bet that Vespin II appeals to a lot of us guys. It's absolutely beautiful.

    Thanks. I thought maybe it had something to do with the canister flush valve (Flush Valve Tower Assembly, THU396) in the Drake II 1G EL (C454CUFG/ST454E). To me, there was the three piece (water tank up high, down pipe, bowl [Godfather II], the two piece and the one piece.)

    Last question, why is velcro used on some Toto toilets? I mean, really? Why not duct tape? Seems chintzy to me. Toto could cast a top with an indentation for a couple of pennies, I figure.

    [edit] One more last question - re-inforced wax seal with a flange or 100% wax seal without the flange?
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  20. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

    Messages:
    1,903
    Location:
    New York, NY
    Shame to have to go with the Kohler just because of the supply location. Maybe you could put a 90 or a Dahl Skirted Toilet Installation Kit on there? http://www.dahlvalve.com/PDF/Skirted_Toilet_Brchre_US.pdf

    You want the wax ring without the flange, unless the top of the flange is below the finished floor level, whereupon you would use either an extra-thick one or stack two. If you stack two, you put a no-flange ring on the floor and stack a ring with flange on top of it, then put the toilet down on that. The flange helps hold the top ring in place, but it's not the end of the world if you stack two no-flange ones.

    I don't know about why Velcro. I assume that the designers thought it was a good idea. They have no problem casting complex porcelain, as you say.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
Similar Threads: Rough-In Toilet
Forum Title Date
Toilet Forum discussions Toto 10" Rough-in Toilet vs 12" with unifit May 6, 2014
Toilet Forum discussions Cadet PRO Elongated Toilet 10" Rough-In 1.6gpf Nov 29, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions Need unusual toilet with 20" rough-in Oct 25, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions Need recs for 3 toilets with varying rough-in depths and poorly placed supply lines Jan 25, 2013
Toilet Forum discussions You've heard this before - offset flange versus toilet with shorter rough-in Aug 24, 2012

Share This Page