Toto Ultramax or Champion 4 One Piece?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by TheNit, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. TheNit

    TheNit New Member

    Jan 27, 2010
    I realize that this forum has a problem with Champion 4 but should the one piece Champion 4 (new version) be included? Has anybody had any experience with the one piece Champion 4? I was at a plumbing store (Koehler shop) and their opinion was that the Champion 4 had a better flushing system than the Toto in that the "bowl wash" was better. The Champion 4 is also cheaper than the Toto. I don't want "right height" so the Koehler Cimmarron 6's are out.

    When replying, please consider the newest models only. Manufacturers put 10 year warranties on products when they were bad in the past and they need to get the customers back. All it means to me is that they are confident that they've fixed the problems and they can afford to extend the warranty. Is there something bad about giving a 10 year warranty?
  2. FloridaOrange

    FloridaOrange Plumbing Designer

    Dec 2, 2005
    Plumbing Designer
    SW Florida
    Toto's are favored here. I have a new Champion4 2 peice and am very happy with it. Kohler is about the bottom of the list IMO.
    Regardless of any toilet you get, check it carefully in the store (if possible) or at home upon reciept. Verify that there are no cracks or chips and that the glazing is complete.
    My opinion of the American Standard is that it is a good unit but in general, quality control may be lacking.
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  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    Bothell, Washington
    The length of the warranty means nothing.

    American Standard had the 10 year warranty on the original Champion.
    When the rep brought it by my home, I laughed when he pulled the lid and I looked inside.

    He asked why I was laughing.
    I told him there was no way that was going to last ten years.
    He told me it wasn't going to be a problem for plumbers, it was warranted for 10 years.
    I responded back that the plumber would be on the hook for the next 10 years replacing bad parts, and that it would affect the plumbers.

    He gave me the toilet, and I installed it.
    Within a few months, the parts in the flush tower gave out, and it wouldn't flush poop!
    I mean it would barely flush any water.
    The parts had worn in, and the tower was dropping too soon.
    The timing was off.

    Soon it became apparent that the seal was an issue too.
    Then we noticed that American Standard was shipping porcelain that was chipped and sanded at the factory.
    Chipped and sanded. That means they were selling clay that had already broken, and they were still shipping it.

    The new Champion still has the same poor quality control.
    Remember, American Standard, along with Eljer and Crane have been bought out be an equity group.
    It wasn't even the same owners anymore.
    They started closing American manufacturing plants and moving the work out of the country.
    Which would be fine if the product had improved.
    It hadn't.
    I'm still selling American Standard products, but I'm getting 20% returns.
    I also sell TOTO, and I get less then 1% returns.
    How do you think a plumber feels about 20% returns.
    Would you like to come into work on Friday and donate your wages 52 times a year?
    That would make 416 hours donated to the company.
    How much is that time worth to you?
    When I install American Standard, I'm donating my Fridays. And I'm not happy about it.

    But if your dealer can't get Toto, then by all means, get the American Standard.
    Because I'm guessing that time isn't a factor for you.

    In case you are wondering, I'm removed quite a few Champion toilets.
    They didn't last 10 years. They didn't last two years even.

    Last edited: Jan 31, 2010
  5. SteveW

    SteveW DIY Senior Member

    Feb 11, 2005
    Omaha, NE

    I have absolutely no experience with Kohler or AS toilets, but I relied very heavily on Terry's and other profession plumbers' opinions when picking out 3 toilets for my house. I listen very closely when a busy plumber tells me about all the call-backs on some brands.

    For what it's worth, the bowl wash on the Toto Ultimate II (used to be called the Gwyneth) is excellent. I have 2 of them and would get them again. I also like the look of the one-piece Ultimate II. Do a little looking around this site and you'll see another thread on this particular toilet, complete with video of it flushing. It has Toto's unique "double cyclone" bowl wash.

    Sounds weird to get excited about a toilet, but I tell everyone who'll listen that if they need a new toilet, get the Toto Ultimate II.
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