toilet craftsmanship question

[Terry]

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Many toilets have plugs underneath.
Remember from art class that any clay item that gets fired can't have air pockets?
Sometimes you will see a small hole, or a round plug for that reason. It may be the only way it can be made without it exploding in the kiln.

 

[Runs with Bison]

Sure, millionaires go ahead and buy Toto.

<snip>

But for the average American professional moving every fives years or so, save your pension and go Big Box.

Not a millionaire yet, but it won't be too long. Millionaire or minimum wage worker, the toilet gets equal use from either. Might as well spend an extra hundred dollars to have one that flushes reliably and well, versus one that causes more trouble than it could ever save.

And as a professional who has moved frequently and dealt with crappy toilets in rental and purchased homes, I can't imagine ever putting up with a cheap one again. (I put the same new kitchen faucet in four rental homes...replacing "builder standards" each time.) There is a pretty fair chance that having Totos in the home are a stronger selling point than the price differential. In fact, all else being equal in this market it wouldn't surprise me if it was the difference in getting an offer vs. not getting one at all. Say you have 3 toilets and paid an extra $300 total vs. serviceable budget toilets; being able to point to a reliable, well known toilet is a strong selling point. Compare that to someone recognizing cheap toilets and assuming that as a buyer they will have some sort of plumbing trouble or want to replace them.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Ballvalve]

I have built and sold a lot of homes in many price ranges, and NOBODY ever took a hard look at the toilet. If the toilet looks right for the style in the bathroom, they walk right by. The extraordinary love to the word Toto is fairly restricted to this particular forum.

The thought that a Toto is the difference between an offer and a pass on a house is pretty absurd. Nobody is building, buying or loaning on homes in any case so its all irrelevant in this depression.

Show me a listing that says "Toto toilets in each bathroom" - then we can talk.

Whats a millionaire? Is that net worth [ real estate,books, inventory, artwork,] or gold under the bed?

Done tons of work for extra multi millionaires and never saw a toto crapper in their baths. I qualified as a multi until the land rush crashed, but having a plunger and buying the best for least saved me several thousands over the years, and will help me get through this crash.

I do have to admit that the Venician hotel in Vegas had a toto that sucked turds so fast and clean that I had to lift the lid and give it a good inspection. But as Ian says, it just made me respect the hotel more, and did not convince me to give up my American standards and Kohlers for the at home economy crapper.

 

[Runs with Bison]

A builder who puts in cheap lousy fixtures to save a buck? Wow, there is something new...not. Hell, we all expect that from builders...they are the last folks I would expect good advice from in selecting fixtures unless the only consideration was cheapest to purchase. It might have saved you money, but a turd is still a turd and discriminating buyers do notice.

I guess you've never toured the home of an owner who knows what they are doing when selling. I've seen some nice info sheets while viewing a home--sometimes including full utility cost breakdown, appliance and other upgrades, just in case someone didn't notice them on the first pass. Testing faucets/showers, checking for leaky traps, flushing the toilets, running the HVAC, running exhaust fans, opening and closing a few windows, checking the water heater, etc. are just part of examining a home to me.

Having upgraded the toilets is something I would definitely list in handouts if I had to move this house in this economy. Anyone who has dealt with the 1990's non-flushers will appreciate the difference. You never know what the hook will be in selling something, but in my experience, being able to demonstrate some smart choices for the long haul sells.

Don't know about the millionaire's baths, but the more frugal professionals I know have had an affinity for Toto's when doing toilet swaps.

 

[Terry]

Most of the high end homes and showrooms in the Seattle area are installing Toto toilets.
When I moved to this home, the neighbors across the street from me were very proud of their new TOTO toilets, and gave me a tour of their home.
The other neighbor had an American Standard Champion that he was proud of.
A year latter I pulled a Champion out of a home in West Seattle and offered him the used Champion, to which he said,

"Is there something wrong with it? The one I have now is having problems."

So instead I gave him a used Kohler one-piece toilet worth about $400.00

People are noticing toilets in the Seattle area. But then we have very smart people here.
Boeing, Microsoft, Starbucks, Costco, Nordstrom,

"We're blessed by birth. We have an innovative spirit in the state," says Washington's Gov. Christine Gregoire, who adds: "We've made improvements to get out of the way and let innovation and creativity take over."

"Innovation is the common thread throughout every industry in Washington," says Juli Wilkerson, who heads up Washington's economic development office. Venture capital spending in the state is the fifth-highest in the country, totaling $2.6 billion the past three years.

This climate of creativity dates back to the early 1900s, when John Nordstrom opened his first shoe store, William Boeing built his first airplane and Friedrich Weyerhaeuser built the world's largest saw mill of its time.

When I was building homes, I was incorporating passive solar, heat reflecting glass, energy conserving methods of construction.

I sell all brands, and the brand with the least amount of problems has been the TOTO.
Now not everyone needs something with excellent quality control and performance, but it's nice to know there are good products out there.
When I drive around Bellevue, I see a lot of Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, and Cadillac cars running around. It's not like these people don't have money.

 

[Jc60618]

After 7 years my $70 Eljer toilet still flushes like a champ

 

[Ian Gills]

That's what I like to hear jc60618!

 

[Jadnashua]

I think some of you are forgetting the point...at least some of the toilets out there are designed well (by no means all), all of the factories produce some toilets that work as designed, Toto has succeded in maximizing how many good ones get out the door, while some others are sorely lacking. then again, some people's natural body functions don't stress a toilet, so less than optimum operation isn't as much an issue. Personally, I prefer doing things once, having them work as designed, without having to futz over them, modify them, baby them, or return it to the seller to get one that is actually made well.

So, Toto doesn't sell to the big box stores because they won't compromise. The price is often competitive, and if frustration is worth anything, then they are often cheaper. So, you set your priorities, make your decisions, and hope for the best. If you select a Toto, the chances of frustrations are minimized. Not saying you can't achieve satisfaction with something else. For most people, a sample of one is not anywhere near anything other than a blip...it is NOT statistically significant. Toto performs, and 10-years now with 4 of them, verses the years of others that didn't work well has made it worth the swing to Toto. Do it once, and forget it...I like that!

 

[Ian Gills]

Some of you guys really need to get into Buddhism.

Everything we can experience through our senses is made up of parts, and its existence is dependent on external conditions. Everything is in constant flux, and so conditions and the thing itself are constantly changing. Things are constantly coming into being, and ceasing to be. Since nothing lasts, there is no inherent or fixed nature to any object or experience.

And that includes toilets.

And not all Totos are good. Try the ones at the Lufthansa business class lounge in Dulles International Airport, for instance, next time you are passing through. Yes they look very nice, but they also flush before you are done and splash the seat too!

Perhaps the residential ones are better than their commercial range. One would hope so.

 

[Superduper]

Having installed both a Toto Drake and an A/S Cadet 3, and at extreme risk of entering this argument on religion... let me side a bit with Ian on this argument.

My Toto has been very good, and is the main commode in the main section of the house, and gets lots of use. And yes, I've had to repair it -- fill valve -- and yes it is special for Toto's and 2x the cost of standard toilets. Been installed for 3 years, and needed the one repair about a year ago. (Only clogged once -- my daughter claims this "honor" ... not sure what went down, but we'd rather not ask too many questions here). The previous 'builders special' routinely clogged about every 2-3 days, and always when a visitor was over... It is worth the extra money.. yes, in this case.

My Cadet 3 was installed in a lower level, used daily but not nearly at the level of the Drake. This unit was purchased at a big box for about $120 less than the the Drake. (In Ian's parlance... that's a lot of cod for the family..) The unit works great, has a strong flush, and has not clogged.

So... for extreme situations, I'd pay the added $$'s and get the Toto, but for routine use, there are certainly other less expensive options, that perform as well. The hassle factor in buying a Toto is not insignificant if you are not a trade professional.

There... that's my opinion. Flame away..

 

[SteveW]

I think some of you are forgetting the point...at least some of the toilets out there are designed well (by no means all), all of the factories produce some toilets that work as designed, Toto has succeded in maximizing how many good ones get out the door, while some others are sorely lacking. then again, some people's natural body functions don't stress a toilet, so less than optimum operation isn't as much an issue. Personally, I prefer doing things once, having them work as designed, without having to futz over them, modify them, baby them, or return it to the seller to get one that is actually made well.

So, Toto doesn't sell to the big box stores because they won't compromise. The price is often competitive, and if frustration is worth anything, then they are often cheaper. So, you set your priorities, make your decisions, and hope for the best. If you select a Toto, the chances of frustrations are minimized. Not saying you can't achieve satisfaction with something else. For most people, a sample of one is not anywhere near anything other than a blip...it is NOT statistically significant. Toto performs, and 10-years now with 4 of them, verses the years of others that didn't work well has made it worth the swing to Toto. Do it once, and forget it...I like that!

Jim - this is by far one of the best summaries of this controversy I have seen. Your thinking is similar to mine - I have had trouble with other brands, and have had no trouble with the 3 Totos I have in my house. Not a statistically valid sample, as you say, but I don't think it's mere coincidence either. I just wanted to stack the deck in my favor and decrease the odds of having to replace the new toilets (being it's a job I really don't particularly like, not to mention not liking to spend money on products that don't work and need to be hauled to the landfill to boot). That's why I picked Toto.