Tank cracked. Replace tank or toilet?

Users who are viewing this thread

modernhistorian

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Colorado
The downstairs lavatory has an American Standard Cadet toilet. It's a 12" offset, but the rough-in plumbers set the 3" stack a little too close and the tank contacts the drywall. The other two toilets have gaps behind the tank. Perhaps this explains why, 15 years later, the tank on this one suddenly cracked down the side.

My options are, I guess, to replace the tank alone or the entire toilet. I don't want to replace the tank alone if it is likely to crack again. Could I buy a tank that would fit this toilet and yet be slimmer? (It says 4112 inside.) If I replace the entire toilet, should I buy one that has a smaller offset to pull it out from the wall?

Lastly, I'd like specific recommendations on a new toilet, if I replace it. I've never been happy with this one, as it clogs easily so I must keep an old brush and plunger handy. We have a well, so pressure is only 40-55 psi. I don't care how slowly the tank fills, if it gives good flushing.

Thanks for any help and advice.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
If I replace the entire toilet, should I buy one that has a smaller offset to pull it out from the wall?
Probably not. You can get one that normally has a bigger gap.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/11-rough-in-toilet.7386/ can give you some ideas. You want to think about what else is useful to you besides reliable flushing... elongated, height, one-piece, skirted, inexpensive, or whatever.

Lastly, I'd like specific recommendations on a new toilet, if I replace it. I've never been happy with this one, as it clogs easily so I must keep an old brush and plunger handy.
There is your answer. Replace it for sure.
 

modernhistorian

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Colorado
Thanks for the prompt reply. The bolts are 11 5/8" from the wall (the master bathroom toilet is 12") and I will plan on replacing the whole toilet. The lavatory is 65" wide, so size is not an issue and we prefer the elongated bowl. It should be moderately priced and readily available. This one is 15" from floor to rim, and that is OK. The main criteria is that it should flush reliably without requiring high water pressure. Recommendations?
 

modernhistorian

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Colorado
Yes, that looks good and is available (but not in stock) at the big box. It's a 12" rough-in; would it have at least 3/8" tolerance on that?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
Yes, that looks good and is available (but not in stock) at the big box. It's a 12" rough-in; would it have at least 3/8" tolerance on that?
When you put the toilet is, you will have a little slop, especially with 1/4 inch closet bolts. If your closet flange has slots, that helps let you move the toilet location.

You might want to consider a waxless seal. That is easier for the less-experienced. You must not lift the toilet or reposition the toilet with wax. You will also want shims. If you use a waxless seal, you can add the shims. If you use wax, position the shims first so you are not raising the toilet after lowering it. How you shim can affect the clearance at the top of the tank. Use door and window shims. Look at https://terrylove.com/forums/index....efg-2-piece-toilet-written-by-jamie-love.743/
 

modernhistorian

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Colorado
Thanks, Reach4 and Terry. I've ordered the Entrada for pickup at Home Depot, and a waxless seal in case I do need to shim away from the wall. I put in the three toilets originally, so I hope to have no major problems. If I do, I'll ask here!
 

WJcandee

Wise One
Messages
3,181
Reaction score
170
Points
63
Location
New York, NY
We're always happy when folks let us know how it went and post a photo or two of their finished project.

If you end up replacing any more toilets, our members have found that they get much better results ordering from a local plumbing supply place rather than special ordering at a big box. When you order from the local guy, chances are lower that it will arrive broken or cracked, and it should arrive to him quickly from his nearby wholesaler. The Big Boxes are selling a LOT more Toto than they used to, but often it arrives by the same shipment methods that the online sellers use, and sometimes this means that it gets broken in transit.

You can get a similar or better price to the Big Box if you follow our oft-repeated strategy. Have the model number and color you want in hand (e.g. "CST744EL in #1 (cotton white)") and do some research at the Big Box and online to know what the range of available prices are for that exact model number. Then, open the Yellow Pages (go find the paper version; it's somewhere in your house) and look up Plumbing Supply; that's the best way to find these otherwise-hidden places. It doesn't even matter if your Yellow Pages is years old; a lot of these places have been around for decades. Force yourself to call 5 different places, usually avoiding the big showrooms. Tell them nicely that you are ready to order a toilet today, and you want to know what their best price on a model number _____ would be if you came in and paid for it today. Customer service to civilians, and price to civilians, varies widely at these places. One place will be staffed by complete jerks. But a couple of places will be nice. One place will be outrageously-expensive, and one will be very-surprisingly-reasonable compared even to the Big Box. At least one will be nice and offer a good price. Then you pick your place, go visit them, and order the toilet. And when it's ready (no matter where you buy it) open the box and make sure that nothing is broken and that it doesn't have any significant defects before you take it home.

Now you're buying like a Pro!

PS This calling around to trade-focused places works for other stuff as well, and usually yields the same array of expensive jerks and affordable niceguys. A recent one I encountered was regarding house paint. There's one local paint place that everyone in our family has sworn never to go into again because they are SUCH a-holes. (And of course every few years we break our oath and try them again, with identical results.) Recently, I went there with a professional painting contractor to view the exact finished paint color before they mixed the whole big batch for him. I had told him I didn't want to buy the paint there because of years of horrible treatment, but he insisted. What a different experience; they practically threw rose petals at his feet -- and they did a great job for him. They really couldn't have been better or nicer -- and it was the exact same folks that had been awful to us. It's just a prejudice against non-tradespeople that some of these places have. It's nationwide, and it's why the Big Boxes have been so successful with DIY-ers. But at least a few of these places will roll out the red carpet for regular folks, and since they're in my community, I still try to find ones to use.
 
Last edited:

hj

Master Plumber
Messages
33,602
Reaction score
1,040
Points
113
Location
Cave Creek, Arizona
Website
www.terrylove.com
When "trade people" are your bread and butter, why would you treat THEIR customers the same way, and give them the same prices? I do not go to supply houses that serve "civilians" before tradesmen who are losing money every minute they are in the store, especially when the civilians can be very time intensive with their questions and uncertainties. And, when they sell to them at my price, then they are my competitors because that limits my markup. I once installed an expensive bathtub for a customer and she called the shop, ,using my name, and asked what the price was and then wanted me to give it to her at a discount based on the actual cost. I didn't, and berated the supply house for giving her the information, then never answered any phone calls from her again.
 

WJcandee

Wise One
Messages
3,181
Reaction score
170
Points
63
Location
New York, NY
HJ, I actually agree with virtually everything you said. But I don't think this justifies any business being rude a-holes.

For example, I didn't say that the supply place is going to give a retail customer YOUR price. I did say that they can choose to come close to or beat the known retail prices, like the Big Box price, and they still aren't going to be anywhere near what they will sell you the product for. The Big Box price is out there; the online price is out there, and there's no reason for them not to be willing to sell retail near that to a buying-it-today cash customer.

The customer you describe, on the other hand, is a total idiot. Did SHE pick the product up and bring it to the job site? Did SHE have the expertise to determine whether the product would be installable in her designated space? Did she bring it upstairs to the bathroom and figure out how to get it in the door? Did she put it on her tab (or pay cash for it) long before it was actually installed and thus affect her cash flow? As far as I am concerned, all those factors can and should be reflected in the price at which you sell it to her. You are NEVER representing to the customer that the price you are charging her is the exact price you paid for it. You are charging her overhead and profit and a DELIVERED price. Which is totally fair.

I don't begrudge people who try to negotiate a lower price. The vast majority of the time, I just tell them, "No." Nobody has a right to use you or use me. I think explaining to the idiot customer how the system works: "This is what I am selling the tub to you for, and here's why," is generally good enough. Most people will take "No" for an answer with an appropriate explanation, and for the few who don't, you don't want repeat business from them in the future anyway. I sure don't, and I don't worry about the few nitwits that have walked away and hired someone else. I try to be a good person, so I don't take pleasure in knowing that when I checked on their matter later, they...um.. got the quality of result that they paid for.

I don't think, however, that treating a regular customer rudely on the first encounter, or assuming that they are an idiot and treating them as such, is good business. I do think that treating professional customers as a priority is appropriate. If a civilian is asking a million questions and there is a trade customer in the store and nobody to help him, all one has to do is say, "Give me a moment to deal with this pro customer quickly, and I will come back and answer all of your questions."

I tended bar back in the day, and I've been a partner in hospitality businesses. All bartenders end up with a few folks every night who are really needy and, left to their devices, will monopolize the bartender's time and keep him from interacting the way he needs to with his other customers. That's bad for the other customers and thus is bad for the bartender and the owner. The problem is worse for female bartenders. I have taught everyone I have trained a simple solution: you just cut them off and say, "Give me a sec. Be right back." And you WALK AWAY and do what you have to do, and return to that person in the normal flow. Works perfectly, and the customer is always cool with it if you do it right. This works in every business that has a counter at which you deal with people. (You also immediately acknowledge -- "Hey, Guys! Be right with you" -- anybody who comes in the moment they come in, even if you're in mid-sentence with someone. That immediate acknowledgement actually makes the wait seem shorter for those who walk in.)

All bartenders also have horror stories about customers, and all bartenders can make an initial sizeup of a customer that will be accurate about half the time. They think it's more than 50 percent accurate, but in truth it's not. They just make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. By treating all customers very well -- as if they're the one that's gonna surprise me -- I got surprised a lot, and I made a lot more money than others did.

I don't think that any plumbing supply needs to treat me like crap just because I don't have a Carhartt jacket on. But if they want to do that, that's their perogative, and I will go elsewhere because I sure as hell am not going to give them my money. And they can bleed to death and die serving the diminishing market in which someone just calls their plumber and asks him to furnish and install a toilet, while others learn to do it themselves and go buy the product somewhere else, or buy it through a design/build showroom who is going to sell them the product directly and hire their captive plumber (or, worse, non-plumber) to install it.
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,798
Reaction score
4,412
Points
113
Location
IL
For example, I didn't say that the supply place is going to give a retail customer YOUR price. I did say that they can choose to come close to or beat the known retail prices, like the Big Box price, and they still aren't going to be anywhere near what they will sell you the product for.
Another thing that I think the markup buys is that if that item is defective early or within a certain amount of time, the plumber will remove the old and bring and install the replacement free if they sold it. Am I right on that? That does not seem to be discussed much.

If the plumber installs a customer-supplied product and it does not produce, the fetching, removal and reinstall of the replacement is obviously not free.
 

Jadnashua

Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx
Messages
32,770
Reaction score
1,190
Points
113
Location
New England
Whomever buys the product seems to be (and I agree) responsible for the labor to install it, or return it for a good one. The pro needs to make a living, so first, he tends to buy products he knows work, and if they don't, has enough margin to make it right. Someone who buys the product himself for a pro to install needs to still pay for whatever labor is required to make it work, and that may include removing it, taking it back for an exchange, the installing the replacement. To do this and stay in business, he needs a markup, or he'll go out of business.
 

modernhistorian

New Member
Messages
6
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Colorado
We're always happy when folks let us know how it went and post a photo or two of their finished project.

The Entrata arrived after nearly two weeks. I followed the sticky-posted procedure except that I set the bowl before installing the tank. The tank did fit, with about 1/4 inch gap to the wall. I have a tile floor and used three composite shims to level, two in back on either side and one on the front right. I used a waxless seal, as I had on the previous toilet. No problems, no leaks, and I have only had to flush twice once since then. Thanks again for the help, especially in choosing the Toto. I have added toilet to the list of things Japanese always to buy, along with cars and cameras!
 

Ballvalve

General Engineering Contractor
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Location
northfork, california
The world is drastically changing in regard to product pricing from pro-only suppliers. As a shocking example, I sent my customer to a manufacturer's website to look at a complicated mechanism that we were going to buy and incorporate into a product. He said that he would order it from the website for us to utilize. I told him no, I can get it for less from my supplier that has been a distributor of this mechanism for 40 years. Well, turns out that the on line cost delivered from the manufacturers website was $249 and my "Pro discount" contractors only distributor was $389 for the exact same item. And, no, support was available and better from the manufacturer.
So here we have a complete reversal of the time old program. And it's going with toilets too. My latest 2 Kohler 1 gpm toilets were delivered free without tax from the east coast by fed-ex on a pallet in perfect condition - and no matter if not, they would ship a new one that day. The cost each was $236 and from my "pro" distributor, $289 + tax and delivery with a minimum total order. Same situation with well pumps. And no distributor has the time to really shop the best specs for a product like one can for himself between 9pm and 2 am. Brave new world!
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks