New pump help

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Reach4

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No Dole valve or CSV in current use, can you point me to the right thread for the flow sleeve? I searched as you say but you get a lot of hits. I expressed my probably unwarranted concern on the sleeve in my response to Valveman above.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/flow-inducer-sleeve.95740/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/submersible-pump-inducer-sleeve-help.55949/

I'll have to see what I can dig up for info on the filter, I'm sure there's a label on it somewhere. The filter itself is a completely enclosed fiberglass shell and stands about 4.5' tall, you don't change the media so I doubt I'll be able to provide anything there.
How about the tank diameter? 10 inch? This table is for Katalox Light, one of the lighter effective medias.
I think you would want between 30% and 40% bed expansion, tho 25% might be enough. More expansion is usually better.
index.php


Here is the deal... some media, such as Filox, etc, are very dense, and need a lot of gpm/sqin. And yes, it is the cross sectional area that matters for getting the backwash rate right. Some media are lighter.

If you have a jacket over the tank, that makes measuring the diameter of the tank harder, so compensate. You would not be able to knock on the tank to learn about the bed expansion, and you certainly could not shine a light through.

Is the fiberglass natural tan color? If so, you can shine a light through, in the dark, and see if there is bed expansion during backwash. If painted, some can detect the different sound of the fluffed-up/expanded media when knocking onto the side of the tank during backwash.

Would you say your iron filter is effective (not broke)?
 
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Bannerman

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It seems you are misunderstanding the purpose for the flow inducer sleeve.

On most submersible pumps, the electric motor is located at the very bottom, with the pump located above with the water entering the pump through a grill located between the pump and electric motor.

In most wells, water does not flow into the well from below, but enters above the pump, flowing downward before entering the pump inlet. As there is little water movement below, there is s often insufficient water flow across the electric motor so as to cool the motor.

An inducer sleeve is simply a short section of larger diameter pipe that will surround the pump and motor, which is clamped and sealed to the pump above the pump's water inlet. While the pump is operating, water entering the pump inlet will be drawn upward through the open bottom of the sleeve, passing through the space between the sleeve and the motor. The sleeve will then ensure sufficient cooling flow across the pump's electric motor whenever the pump is operating.
 
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Reach4

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In most wells, water does not flow into the well from below, but enters above the pump, flowing downward before entering the pump inlet. As there is little water movement below, there is s often insufficient water flow across the electric motor so as to cool the motor.
I don't know the prevalence of top-feeding wells vs bottom feeding. I would have thought there were more bottom feeding where you have fully cased wells, which is what I am more familiar with.

But the potential for top feeding is significant and would make the flow inducer much more important. But also, even for bottom feeding, running the water along the motor will make cooling much more efficient.

A submersible in a lake would like a really big casing. An 18 inch dug well would have the same problem. A 4 inch pump in a 6-inch bottom feeding well will still benefit considerably from a flow inducer.

I have a 4 inch casing. No room for a flow inducer with a "4 inch" pump. I assume it is bottom-feeding. If I go to a "3 inch" pump some day, and I am thinking that is how I would go if my pump, date code 2000 but first installed in 2002, needs replacing, I will probably go with an 3-inch SQ with a flow inducer
 

Valveman

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Pumping from 20' deep the 10GS05 is really all you need, even for 60 PSI. The 10GS07 would still be fine, would not need a larger breaker, and would only have 150 PSI back pressure from a CSV. A flow inducer will always help if it will fit in the casing. A well is considered top feeding and requires a flow inducer if the pump is set below the screen, perf, or water bearing formation. Even when the pump is set above the well screen, the flow inducer helps when drawing the static level down.
 

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https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/flow-inducer-sleeve.95740/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/submersible-pump-inducer-sleeve-help.55949/

How about the tank diameter? 10 inch? This table is for Katalox Light, one of the lighter effective medias.
I think you would want between 30% and 40% bed expansion, tho 25% might be enough. More expansion is usually better.

Here is the deal... some media, such as Filox, etc, are very dense, and need a lot of gpm/sqin. And yes, it is the cross sectional area that matters for getting the backwash rate right. Some media are lighter.

If you have a jacket over the tank, that makes measuring the diameter of the tank harder, so compensate. You would not be able to knock on the tank to learn about the bed expansion, and you certainly could not shine a light through.

Is the fiberglass natural tan color? If so, you can shine a light through, in the dark, and see if there is bed expansion during backwash. If painted, some can detect the different sound of the fluffed-up/expanded media when knocking onto the side of the tank during backwash.

Would you say your iron filter is effective (not broke)?

I thought we were talking an off the shelf product for the sleeve, not a diy type of thing. I'm sure it's within my capabilities but my concerns would be it moving downward over time and the deposit buildup issue. Probably neither would happen but those are my paranoia's. Is the sleeve necessary or can you retard the flow with a gate valve? I don't know what a Dole valve is, maybe one in the same? The CSV may be an option as well assuming that'd also be adequate but it's an additional layer of complexity for when something goes wrong. What I have now is pretty simple

The iron filter tank has the name Structural North America model UT-40 and after a quick google I came up with https://www.aquascience.net/wellmate-40-gallon-universal-retention-tank so assuming it's the same as 23 years ago then all the info is there. It is 16" diameter and gray color like the photo. I haven't noticed any iron stains which is what I was getting before the filter so I'd say it's still doing it's job at this point.
 

Reach4

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I thought we were talking an off the shelf product for the sleeve, not a diy type of thing. I'm sure it's within my capabilities but my concerns would be it moving downward over time and the deposit buildup issue. Probably neither would happen but those are my paranoia's. Is the sleeve necessary or can you retard the flow with a gate valve? I don't know what a Dole valve is, maybe one in the same?
Dole valve limits the flow rate. When a pump does not have the backpressure it was designed for, that can potentially cause a problem.

A valve has the potential for somebody to close it, unless special precautions were taken.

The sleeve is unrelated to what a Dole valve does. The sleeve/flow inducer has various advantages discussed in #22 and #23, but mainly keeping the motor cooler. Necessary? Most pumps don't have one. Cheap method of extending pump motor life.
 

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Pumping from 20' deep the 10GS05 is really all you need, even for 60 PSI. The 10GS07 would still be fine, would not need a larger breaker, and would only have 150 PSI back pressure from a CSV. A flow inducer will always help if it will fit in the casing. A well is considered top feeding and requires a flow inducer if the pump is set below the screen, perf, or water bearing formation. Even when the pump is set above the well screen, the flow inducer helps when drawing the static level down.

Ok, so if I did either of these two with no sleeve, no CSV or other type of valve what's the likely outcome? Would they overheat? Would the flow be too much and I'd run the well dry? That's one thing I don't understand, aren't your fixtures limiting your draw rate? If I'm running a shower, say 3.5gpm, a sink and a washing machine at the same time (1 gpm each?) would I ever really be in jeopardy of running it dry? Wouldn't I only be drawing 5.5 gpm?
 

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Dole valve limits the flow rate. When a pump does not have the backpressure it was designed for, that can potentially cause a problem.

A valve has the potential for somebody to close it, unless special precautions were taken.

The sleeve is unrelated to what a Dole valve does. The sleeve/flow inducer has various advantages discussed in #22 and #23, but mainly keeping the motor cooler. Necessary? Most pumps don't have one. Cheap method of extending pump motor life.

This is kind of what I was wondering, I think I'd be really surprised if when I pull the existing one if it has a sleeve on it. I am also wondering what they used that doesn't require anything to limit the flow. It did, actually still is technically, last 23 years and while a new one may not last as long it may very well outlast me.
 

Reach4

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This is kind of what I was wondering, I think I'd be really surprised if when I pull the existing one if it has a sleeve on it. I am also wondering what they used that doesn't require anything to limit the flow. It did, actually still is technically, last 23 years and while a new one may not last as long it may very well outlast me.
Well, they probably did not use a 1 HP pump. I had had your well confused with somebody else.

Probably a 1/2 HP pump. When the pump is pulled, take a photo of the two labels -- one on the upper pump part, and one on the motor.
 

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Dole valve limits the flow rate. When a pump does not have the backpressure it was designed for, that can potentially cause a problem.

A valve has the potential for somebody to close it, unless special precautions were taken.

The sleeve is unrelated to what a Dole valve does. The sleeve/flow inducer has various advantages discussed in #22 and #23, but mainly keeping the motor cooler. Necessary? Most pumps don't have one. Cheap method of extending pump motor life.

If I used the 10GS05 and put in a 7gpm dole valve would that potentially provide the backpressure needed while limiting flow and short cycles?
 

Bannerman

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That's one thing I don't understand, aren't your fixtures limiting your draw rate? If I'm running a shower, say 3.5gpm, a sink and a washing machine at the same time (1 gpm each?) ... Wouldn't I only be drawing 5.5 gpm?
As a simplified explanation, if your pump is capable of 10 GPM and the total flow rate to the fixtures is 5.5 GPM, then the pressure tank will fill @ 4.5 GPM. If 2 GPM to fixtures, then 8 GPM to the pressure tank. If 8 GPM to fixtures, then 2 GPM to the pressure tank.

Once the pressure tank becomes filled and the system pressure rises to the pressure switch cut-out pressure, the pressure switch will then shut-down the pump. Continued flow to fixtures will then draw from the pressure tank until the pressure is reduced to the pressure switch cut-in pressure where by the pump will become activated again, so the process will be repeated as long as water continues to be utilized. Draw from the well will be either 10 GPM or 0 GPM.
 
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Reach4

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If I used the 10GS05 and put in a 7gpm dole valve would that potentially provide the backpressure needed while limiting flow and short cycles?
Yes, but a CSV125 would be more adaptive to the water use. That is to say if an iron filter needs more than 5 gpm to backwash, and it almost surely will, the flow volume will be there.. If using a 40/60 pressure switch, I am thinking use a CSV125-3 50 psi version with your existing tank. But maybe somebody will have a different thought.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/model-csv125
 

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Yes, but a CSV125 would be more adaptive to the water use. That is to say if an iron filter needs more than 5 gpm to backwash, and it almost surely will, the flow volume will be there.. If using a 40/60 pressure switch, I am thinking use a CSV125-3 50 psi version with your existing tank. But maybe somebody will have a different thought.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/model-csv125

You probably meant the CSV125-1? The CSV125-3 says it's for 3 & 5hp pumps. Is the wet spot they're talking about just an occasional drip kind of thing or are we talking a constant drip into a puddle? It's concrete so not a big issue but what should I expect?

How will any debris affect the valve? I'm assuming I would want to wait to install after I pumped clean after installing the pump? There will no doubt debris that will be knocked down when changing. I know I ended up with some at my tank when I was last playing around in there, I could hear it fall down in when I moved the wire around.
 
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As a simplified explanation, if your pump is capable of 10 GPM and the total flow rate to the fixtures is 5.5 GPM, then the pressure tank will fill @ 4.5 GPM. If 2 GPM to fixtures, then 8 GPM to the pressure tank. If 8 GPM to fixtures, then 2 GPM to the pressure tank.

Once the pressure tank becomes filled and the system pressure rises to the pressure switch cut-out pressure, the pressure switch will then shut-down the pump. Continued flow to fixtures will then draw from the pressure tank until the pressure is reduced to the pressure switch cut-in pressure where by the pump will become activated again, so the process will be repeated as long as water continues to be utilized. Draw from the well will be either 10 GPM or 0 GPM.

I knew this but I guess I had a brain fart when I wrote that, I'll use being tired as an excuse :)
 

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The CSV does not add a level of complexity. It is a simple valve which simplifies the system by keeping the pump from cycling on and off. Do not use the CSV125 in iron water, as it will only last when pumping fairly clean water. The CSV1A is designed to handle debris, and will even work with lake water with fish bones, leaves, and other debris.

If your pump lasted that long and doesn't have a flow inducer, then it is not a top feeding well and you don't need one. If you do make it out of the 4" white drain pipe as it is thinner wall and easier to work with.
 

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The CSV does not add a level of complexity. It is a simple valve which simplifies the system by keeping the pump from cycling on and off. Do not use the CSV125 in iron water, as it will only last when pumping fairly clean water. The CSV1A is designed to handle debris, and will even work with lake water with fish bones, leaves, and other debris.

If your pump lasted that long and doesn't have a flow inducer, then it is not a top feeding well and you don't need one. If you do make it out of the 4" white drain pipe as it is thinner wall and easier to work with.

The good news with the CSV1A is it's smaller and should work easily in the space occupied by the check valve that you told me I should remove. :) My area is limited on space, I don't know why they set things up so tightly when I had an entire basement area to work with.

The good news is I finally had a call back so this may not be a diy after all, it's a place that's been in business here for over 30 years so I feel more confident in their abilities and his initial guesstimation on cost was a no-brainer. The devil is in the details though so I'll know more when we meet. At least I'm armed with some knowledge and can ask some appropriate questions.
 

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It is very common to install a Cycle Stop Valve in the same place the unnecessary check valve comes out of. You can also use as small as a 4.5 gallon size tank if you want to save some space. The PK1A kit can even be mounted up high on a wall saving all the floor space.
 

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I thought I should come back and finish off this thread with the results. My pump turned out to be a 10GPM Flint & Walling pump, date code 7/98, and it was replaced with the exact same model pump aside from the motor no longer being a Franklin. No sleeve was used (prior or now) and it turned out my well was 100 feet deep and not the 60 I was told.

I had to take back out my air injector (Waterite Micronizer), as it had mostly plugged with iron sediment, and replaced it with a new one. It really stirred up a lot of sediment, it took a couple of weeks before it totally cleaned up. I cleaned the old micronizer and will use as a quick swap for future. I measured the flow prior to the injector install and after 40 seconds I filled two 5 gal pails full so more than enough water, it will fill the tank set at 40/60 in about 25 seconds now with the micronizer fully open.

I removed the check valve and it holds pressure just fine so that eliminates the possible leak issue between the tank and pump. The prior installer had used wire nuts on the cable at the well head and one of them had melted at some point, not sure why but it clearly got hot at one point. This installer used crimp connections with electrical tape. My cable was also rubbing on the casing down near the pump so I don't think it would have been much longer before it shorted out. My iron filter backwash sounds like a jet engine again and my pump easily keeps up with the flow and builds pressure again when the backwash is in use.

Thanks for all the help from everyone here! Maybe I'll do the CSV later on, it's been enough fun and money for me for a little while.
 

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Thanks for all the help from everyone here! Maybe I'll do the CSV later on, it's been enough fun and money for me for a little while.

The wire in the well chaffing is another sign your pump is cycling on and off too much, which also causes MOST other pump problems. Don't use the CSV125 with debris or iron in the well as it only likes clean water. But the CSV1A is designed to handle the debris and works well even with lake pumps that have sediment, leaves, fish bones, etc.
 
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Djc11369

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The wire in the well chaffing is another sign your pump is cycling on and off too much

In a round about way I suppose, what appeared to have happened is the installer had used plastic cable guides and only taped the wire to the pipe in one spot about half way up. He just coiled up the excess wire and shoved it in at the top of casing. There was excess slack in the cable at the pump end so I think that it slowly worked it's way down over 23 years, the cable guides provided no resistance for it to not slide down.

Would the CSV go before or after the micronizer? How often do they need to be rebuilt? I'm guessing the orings are probably the first thing to degrade
 
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