New pump help

[Djc11369]

Hi all,
My pump of 23 years is showing signs of it's age, it used to fill my 20 gal tank in about 30-40 seconds and now takes about 1 minute and 45 seconds. It's supposed to have a 6.2 gal drawdown so I'd say it's outputting about 3.5 gpm? It's not adequate to backwash my iron filter or water softener, they used to sound like a jet engine taking off and now I don't hear them much at all except maybe a minute or two.

I've also been experiencing random puffs of air from different fixtures, it's not sputtering but just a quick puff and isn't very frequent so I'm hoping that it's tied to the pump as well. Tank was replaced 2 years ago, I just double checked the precharge a month ago and it was down 1 psi so topped off and good there.

I wasn't provided any detail on my well when it was drilled other than verbally that it's 60 feet deep. No info on current pump, I've discerned that my setup is 2 wire and 230V. Pressure switch is set at 30/50 although I am considering adjusting and going to 40/60.

What I've been able to collect for info: 1" poly pipe, 87 feet from well to house, static water level 19 feet, 6" casing. I tried to get measure how much it draws down when the pump is running but I stop at something at about 29 feet, I believe it's a plastic cable guide but not positive. There is one above that I had to finesse by line through. I think I see glimmer of water just below it.

So with all that said, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I probably am, I calculate a TDH@50 psi of 185 feet (209 feet @ 60 psi). I assumed 60 feet for elevation head because I have no idea how far down the pump really is, ~9 feet for friction head and 116 (or 140) feet for pressure head.

Only 2 people in the 3 bedroom, 2 bath house but only 1 shower is used at any given time along with maybe a sink or toilet flush. Maybe a dishwasher or washing machine running. If you use the 1 gpm per fixture count method it'd be 10 gpm.

Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I forgot something. Any input on an appropriate pump would be appreciated, Gould seems to be what's common in my neck of the woods but Grundfos or...?

 

[2stupid2fixit]

Hi all,
My pump of 23 years is showing signs of it's age, it used to fill my 20 gal tank in about 30-40 seconds and now takes about 1 minute and 45 seconds. It's supposed to have a 6.2 gal drawdown so I'd say it's outputting about 3.5 gpm? It's not adequate to backwash my iron filter or water softener, they used to sound like a jet engine taking off and now I don't hear them much at all except maybe a minute or two.

I've also been experiencing random puffs of air from different fixtures, it's not sputtering but just a quick puff and isn't very frequent so I'm hoping that it's tied to the pump as well. Tank was replaced 2 years ago, I just double checked the precharge a month ago and it was down 1 psi so topped off and good there.

I wasn't provided any detail on my well when it was drilled other than verbally that it's 60 feet deep. No info on current pump, I've discerned that my setup is 2 wire and 230V. Pressure switch is set at 30/50 although I am considering adjusting and going to 40/60.

What I've been able to collect for info: 1" poly pipe, 87 feet from well to house, static water level 19 feet, 6" casing. I tried to get measure how much it draws down when the pump is running but I stop at something at about 29 feet, I believe it's a plastic cable guide but not positive. There is one above that I had to finesse by line through. I think I see glimmer of water just below it.

So with all that said, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I probably am, I calculate a TDH@50 psi of 185 feet (209 feet @ 60 psi). I assumed 60 feet for elevation head because I have no idea how far down the pump really is, ~9 feet for friction head and 116 (or 140) feet for pressure head.

Only 2 people in the 3 bedroom, 2 bath house but only 1 shower is used at any given time along with maybe a sink or toilet flush. Maybe a dishwasher or washing machine running. If you use the 1 gpm per fixture count method it'd be 10 gpm.

Sorry for the long post, I'm sure I forgot something. Any input on an appropriate pump would be appreciated, Gould seems to be what's common in my neck of the woods but Grundfos or...?

Puff= air is getting in somewhere.

Have you checked your pitless connection? Mine dryrotted over time and caused symptoms similar to yours. Your pump could be working just fine and doing a swell job pumping the water right back down the well case.

Next: check the amperage draw (or have someone do it if you aren't comfortable doing it) and tell us how many amps the pump pulls from a dead stop and then measure it again when it is running. Tell us what the readings are.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Djc11369]

Puff= air is getting in somewhere.

I did look down in the well when I tried to get a measure on the drawdown with the pump running and no water was coming from the adapter, you could only hear the hum of the pump.

I do have an iron filter which uses an air injector, I believe it's called, into the line but unless it's a symptom of something going wrong with it I've never had puffs of air before. It is very infrequent, like maybe once every two to three weeks.

While electrical isn't my thing I'm open to checking it if you tell me the right way to do an amperage check. I don't usually play with anything over 120v, for some reason 240 makes me more nervous. I'm not sure how many amps my multimeters are good to but just put the test leads on each of the wires coming from the pump? I can do it right at the pressure switch? How many amps should I expect? The new pump I'm looking at says 4 amps which I'm assuming is running amps, Goulds 5GS05422C, and I assume start will be higher. Since I'm a chicken and am well aware only 1 amp will kill you I'll rig up a way so I'm not holding the leads.

 

[Reach4]

While electrical isn't my thing I'm open to checking it if you tell me the right way to do an amperage check. I don't usually play with anything over 120v, for some reason 240 makes me more nervous.

It should not. Normally if you get shocked, one part of your body is grounded and one part contacts a hot circuit. With 240, the voltage to ground is the same as it is for a 120..... now if you grab two hots, yes, you would get a bigger shock. But that is unlikely.

I do have an iron filter which uses an air injector, I believe it's called, into the line but unless it's a symptom of something going wrong with it I've never had puffs of air before. It is very infrequent, like maybe once every two to three weeks.

Those typically need some periodic cleaning. And some air getting into the pipes during regen is not unusual with those.
See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....system-after-air-injection-iron-filter.74384/ including #18

 

[2stupid2fixit]

While electrical isn't my thing I'm open to checking it if you tell me the right way to do an amperage check. I don't usually play with anything over 120v, for some reason 240 makes me more nervous.

Well, you wouldn't be holding leads to check amperage draw because to use leads to measure voltage is one thing. But, to measure drawn amps the same way, you would need to drag the current through your meter to measure it and I am just going to blindly assume you do not have a meter or the knowledge that is geared for that sort of measurement. No offense meant, it can just get hairy if you jump into it heads first that way. What you probably want is an clamp-on ammeter that like the name says simply clamps around a hot lead and measures the amperage without actually exposing you to the potential. I recommend that you watch a few YouTube videos about how to measure amperage draw with an clamp-on ammeter. You can obtain a decent ammeter (Triplett) for $50 or less. Also, Harbor Frieght sells ammeters for much less but I have never used one of theirs so I can't say if they are any good or not.

Also: Your apprehension of 240 volt circuits is somewhat justified, as its twice as much "pressure" and thus twice as much easier to make a mistake. The two poles alternate in phase, so you don't even need a "neutral" or ground to have people leaving condolences to your family and friends on social media.

But, please, do not ever take a relaxed position with a 120 volt/15 amp circuit, those are plenty efficient at killing you.

 

[Djc11369]

But, please, do not ever take a relaxed position with a 120 volt/15 amp circuit, those are plenty efficient at killing you.

Are you calling me stupid or something? No offense taken, I did say electrical wasn't my thing. I had a electrical college course over 30 years ago and it's kind of a use or lose it kind of thing, some things stick with you while others don't. I certainly remember the 1 amp can kill you, lol.

I only take a relaxed position to low voltage circuits in the occasional electronic curiosity project I take on, but yes youtube is often my friend in those situations as well and I watch many in case the first one I watch is by some self proclaimed expert that doesn't know what they're really doing.

I don't have an ammeter but if it's worth picking up one then I have no qualms about it. What is the amp test going to tell us? If it's drawing a normal amperage range then it's the pump, if it's not then the pump isn't rotating fast enough to provide the gpm's or...?

 

[Djc11369]

Those typically need some periodic cleaning. And some air getting into the pipes during regen is not unusual with those.

I did clean it a couple of years ago when I replaced my tank. I have no idea if the puff coincides with the regen or not, unfortunately it's not loud enough to hear any more to know when it has done a regen, but given it's infrequency it's entirely possible.

I do have an air vent valve at the top of the iron filter that I also replaced a couple of years ago. You would think it would eliminate any air prior to it reaching any fixtures unless it's being introduced further downstream in the water softener maybe?

 

[Reach4]

unless it's being introduced further downstream in the water softener maybe?

A softener can introduce air during regen if the air check valve, in the brine tank, is leaking, or if there is a vacuum leak on the brine line, between the valve and the air check valve.

A submersible pump can draw in air if the water level falls to the intake of the pump. Falling water level in the well can also reduce the gpm from the pump. Wells running dry seem less likely in upstate NY than in some areas.

Failing pump still sounds like your likely problem. Guess it could also be the drop pipe and other piping filling with sediment. If the filling with sediment thing, I would expect the pressure rise during a pump cycle to be relatively linear. If the pump were failing or the water level were dropping, I would think there would be more slowing of the fill rate as the pressure rises.

The current could also offer some insight. If there was sediment blocking the path, I would think the current would stay fairly steady during the fill.

Getting the pump replaced would be the most likely cure vs holding out for less likely problems. When they pull the pump, note the waterline on the drop pump.

 

[Djc11369]

Getting the pump replaced would be the most likely cure vs holding out for less likely problems. When they pull the pump, note the waterline on the drop pump.

Who's they? It will be myself, and for the pulling out of the well, my brother in law and my wife. I was going to hire it done but after calling all the reputable places in my area and not getting any call backs it's become a diy. What's left for "plumbers" I might as well do myself, maybe I'll hang a placard and call myself a plumber afterward. Welcome to the new COVID world, help wanted signs all over the place including plumbers. I don't mind I suppose, I've done considerably worse. I will note the waterline, actual pump depth, and get a measure on the well depth when it's out. It's supposed to be 60 feet but you know contractors, if I was told 60 feet then it's probably less. Amazing all the cut corners you find when you start researching things, the inspector must have been MIA when the house was built or easily bought.

I think at it's age it's reasonable to assume the pump and when I pull it maybe it will tell more to the story. If the "technicians" that have come out to service my boiler have taught me anything it's to just start swapping things until you figure it out.

Any thoughts on the pump itself for a replacement? Aquascience.net suggested Goulds 5GS05422C based on the info which I think is fine but the more input the better.

 

[Reach4]

1. 5GS05422C 1/2 hp 5 gpm pump is too much pump for this high of water. Even a 7 gpm 1/2 hp pump has more stages than you need, but that would work. I think a 10 gpm 1/2 hp pump will be a better match. A 1/3 hp 7 gpm pump would also be a good match, but you are not likely to find one of those.

2. Do put a flow inducer sleeve on the pump. Search in the search box above for flow inducer. If you have questions, ask.

3. When you pull the old pump, take pictures of both labels. That will have date code info as well as other info.

 

[Djc11369]

The more I ask the less I understand Valveman also suggested the 10GS05 in another forum so I'm not understanding something and he didn't offer an explanation when I inquired further. I thought it was look at the flow curve and with the TDH you calculate pick the pump that has the closest GPM needed. Also you want to aim to have the tank fill in a minute to avoid short cycling so in my case 6.2 gpm. So looking at a a max. pressure of 50psi with a calculated TDH of 185 feet the 5GS gives about 7 gpm which would fill the tank in about 50 seconds. The 10GS would give about 8 gpm and fill a few seconds less. Can you please explain why the 10GS is the better fit? There's something counterintuitive to all this that I'm not seeing. Is the higher lift of the 5GS a bad thing even though it provides closer to the GPM needed?

 

[2stupid2fixit]

Your pump is prob not down 200 ft like mine is. Since you are going to do the yank by yourself, you could try a cheap ($150) hallmark pump from ebay. Mine has been working without issue for 11 months. I am not a paid spokesperson. I'm just cheap because when I replaced it, I was broke.

 

[Valveman]

The 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark will only work if your water level stays higher than 40-50 feet.

 

[Djc11369]

Your pump is prob not down 200 ft like mine is. Since you are going to do the yank by yourself, you could try a cheap ($150) hallmark pump from ebay. Mine has been working without issue for 11 months. I am not a paid spokesperson. I'm just cheap because when I replaced it, I was broke.

If my pump had failed completely I'd be down at the local supply or big box store and picking up whatever they have on the shelf just to get water. Since it hasn't I have the luxury? of obsessing over it and coming up with something I hope will last a good long time, at least 10 years if that's possible with todays pumps. A cheap pump is just that and my luck it would up and quit on New Years Day when it's 20 below outside and 4 feet of snow surrounding the well casing. It could happen with a good pump as well but I'd be willing to bet that it's more likely to happen with cheap pump.

 

[Djc11369]

So I did some more obsessing over this (aka overthinking) and decided I'm going to go to 40/60 and that 7 GPM would be more than enough to cover my needs. So with that in mind I calculated a TDH of 204' for just delivering to the tank. That's 60' for elevation head, 139' for pressure head and 5' for friction. What that doesn't take into account is my iron filter or water softener for regen. If I use 30psi for regen of the iron filter that adds another 69' or a total of 273'.

So unless any of that is mistaken I think the 10GS is out as it deadheads at around 200'. The 7GS could work as could the 5GS, I'm just not sure why you would choose one vs. the other. I understand that the 5GS has more available pressure when it gets to the pump but the flow rate for 60 psi at 20 feet is 7gpm which seems right on the money. The 7GS is a little cheaper by about $50 but if I need to put a sleeve on it to reduce the flow then it's likely a wash. If there's something here I'm really not understanding, and there probably is, please fill me in.

 

[Valveman]

You don't need to add 30 PSI to flush the softener. But you will lose about 10 PSI through the filters and softener. So, you might want to go for 50/70 instead of 40/60. You can probably buy a 10GS07 for the same price as a 7GS05. That would give you more options like more flow and pressure, and a CSV would make it work like a small pump when needed.

 

[Reach4]

So unless any of that is mistaken I think the 10GS is out as it deadheads at around 200'.

While the tables have the same info as the charts, the conversion of feet to psi has been done for you. I suspect you are looking at the tables and then applying a 60 psi is about 140 ft of head thing.... nope, not when you use the tables. So for 10gs05, if the pump is on the bottom, which it will not be, and you will be putting water into the pressure tank at 6.4 gpm.

Your 20 gallon pressure tank is undersized for most houses, unless you are using a CSV. A CSV or Dole valve can slow the filling of the tank.

Your well is 60 ft deep. Your pump will probably be no deeper than 5o ft, and with your high static level, you will normally be operating more in the 20 ft column of the table. At cut-in the 05gs05 will be off of the numbers. It may not be into upthrust, but it is not in the center of the operational range.

Most iron filters require 7 or more gpm, and 10 or more is more common. However many, if not most, iron filters are not backwashed at an optimum rate. Tell us about your iron filter-- what size and media.

Regarding providing backwash for you iron filter, you should look at the 40 psi row -- not the 60 psi row.

 

[Djc11369]

You don't need to add 30 PSI to flush the softener. But you will lose about 10 PSI through the filters and softener. So, you might want to go for 50/70 instead of 40/60. You can probably buy a 10GS07 for the same price as a 7GS05. That would give you more options like more flow and pressure, and a CSV would make it work like a small pump when needed.

Ok, so I only need to add 23' more (10psi) to the 204' I had so a total of 227'.

10GS07 is only $40 more than the 7GS05 which is negligible but given electrical isn't my thing would the wire and breaker be adequate for 3/4hp? It's a 20amp breaker and the it's a 12ga stranded wire running to the pump which is a run of ~150' all together. From the switch to the breaker is just regular 12/2 romex and probably around 12'.

I've read a little about CSV's (really I watched the animation on it ) and I like the principle but with only two people in the house would I really benefit from it much? Taking showers is probably the only time it would really be useful? The rest is toilet flushes, dishwasher/washing machine fills, and sinks which are all intermittent uses and not constant draws. Maybe the regens would benefit I suppose but they're probably once a month events.

Would you recommend the flow sleeve that Reach4 had indicated using it if I didn't have the CSV? I tried searching it above but got a lot of hits so not sure what I was looking for other than what it is (probably like it sounds), how it's installed and maybe there's different sizes. My thought on that is, and once again overthinking, would it build up with deposits easier and eventually restrict flow too much? No periodic maintenance to it unless I want to pull it out of the well after so many years.

 

[Reach4]

Try making your search "flow inducer" , with the quotes. Use the search box, above. Sometimes called sleeve.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/lets-talk-inducer-sleeves.78342/#post-570428

Good materials:
solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056 ( white or green)
SDR 35 OD: 4.215 ID 3.97 SDR 35 (PS46) ASTM D3034

10GS07 is only $40 more than the 7GS05

Sigh.

 

[Djc11369]

While the tables have the same info as the charts, the conversion of feet to psi has been done for you. I suspect you are looking at the tables and then applying a 60 psi is about 140 ft of head thing.... nope, not when you use the tables. So for 10gs05, if the pump is on the bottom, which it will not be, and you will be putting water into the pressure tank at 6.4 gpm.

Your 20 gallon pressure tank is undersized for most houses, unless you are using a CSV. A CSV or Dole valve can slow the filling of the tank.

Your well is 60 ft deep. Your pump will probably be no deeper than 5o ft, and with your high static level, you will normally be operating more in the 20 ft column of the table. At cut-in the 05gs05 will be off of the numbers. It may not be into upthrust, but it is not in the center of the operational range.

Most iron filters require 7 or more gpm, and 10 or more is more common. However many, if not most, iron filters are not backwashed at an optimum rate. Tell us about your iron filter-- what size and media.

Regarding providing backwash for you iron filter, you should look at the 40 psi row -- not the 60 psi row.

I was looking at the depth to water as the static level so at the 20 ft column. So for the 5GS for example it would be 7gpm at 60psi, 7.6gpm @ 50 psi and off the charts as you say at 40psi. I just thought it meant it wasn't operating where it's most efficient there, didn't know about any upthrust concern.

No Dole valve or CSV in current use, can you point me to the right thread for the flow sleeve? I searched as you say but you get a lot of hits. I expressed my probably unwarranted concern on the sleeve in my response to Valveman above.

I had considered increasing the size of the tank when I replaced it a couple of years ago but in the end figured if it's not broke then don't fix it. I didn't have the time to research it then.

I'll have to see what I can dig up for info on the filter, I'm sure there's a label on it somewhere. The filter itself is a completely enclosed fiberglass shell and stands about 4.5' tall, you don't change the media so I doubt I'll be able to provide anything there.