Help Deciding- Champion 4 Max vs Toto Drake?

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Stinker

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I need 2 toilets that don't clog. I've literally spent WEEKS researching and reading reviews- my head is spinning! I've narrowed it down to 2 contenders, but am open to new ideas!

Preferences:
- 12" Rough-in
- elongated
- white
- 2-piece
- comfort/standard height (still deciding)
- prefer dual flush (but if a single flush outperforms in the anti-clogging category, I'm very open to it!)
- prefer 1.6gpf (mainly bc I think more water = stronger flush, less leftover mess/cleaning, again, I'm open to less gpf if there's something that really works better!)
- Budget: $200-300

Champion 4 Max:
Pros: seems to be a very strong flush, based on reviews rarely clogs, parts are easily found at big box, price ~$200 and includes seat and full install kit.
Cons: Quality Control seems to be an issue, 1.28gph

Toto Drake:
Many reviews I read state that this new model of the Drake is not nearly as good as the older one... flush is weaker, has weird shape that looks like the bowl isn't clean (caused by shadows), and #1 complaint- front of the bowl is too shallow, causing splashing on crotch, genitalia touching the bowl/water, and streaks/big problems in cleaning the bowl. The problem is I can't find the old model anywhere??? Pricing on these are quite a bit higher, especially when you need to factor in the seat/additional parts pushing this to mid-high $300's.

The Drake II seems to have similar problems as the Drake, but is also much more expensive--- which is just out of my budget. :(

I'd REALLY appreciate some input from you pros here! Thank you for your time... :)
 

Terry

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I'm not a fan of the Champion. If you're thinking American Standard, then the Cadet is a better choice. The Cadet also has a 10" rough.
I sometimes remove the Champions and replace with anything made by TOTO. My customers prefer TOTO over the Champion by a big margin.
If you're reading review by homeowners with little to no experience, then the results don't really mean much.

OMG, I flipped the handle and water went down! Mary, come in here quick, water went down, Wahoo!!! Yeah baby, it works!

I have sold and installed thousands of toilets over the years. I work with all brands. I see the differences between them.

The new 746 Drake with dual flush works fine. They come in 10" and 12"
The 454 Drake II does not come in a 10" model, only 12"
The original Drake has the CST744SF.10 which is the taller bowl and a 10" rough.
 

Stinker

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Hi Terry-
Thanks for the reply. FYI, I need a 12" rough...

With the Toto's- how do you feel about the complaints of them being too shallow in front (for men), not enough water in the bowl which causes problems with cleaning after every use, etc?

Also- do you ship toilets, and would it be possible to DM me and give me a price quote on some Totos?
Thank you!
 

azrichter

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Hi Terry-
Thanks for the reply. FYI, I need a 12" rough...

With the Toto's- how do you feel about the complaints of them being too shallow in front (for men), not enough water in the bowl which causes problems with cleaning after every use, etc?

Also- do you ship toilets, and would it be possible to DM me and give me a price quote on some Totos?
Thank you!

Stinker

You can find TOTOs in Phoenix at either Standard Hardware or Central Arizona Supply. Central Supply has TOTOs on the showroom floor (I saw them at their Surprise store and the one on 16th St., just S. of Camelback). When I checked you could still get the original Drake (CST744) at the 16th St store. The 16th St. store did not have the new Drake (CST746) but I was able to see it way out in Surprise (134th Ave & Bell!).

Central Supply also has American Standard on their floor and can give you feedback, especially if you're interested in the Cadet. Their pricing is probably similar to what you'd see at a big box---ask if they can match. If they get close its worth it to buy from a plumbing supply. The lady that helped me at CAS at 16th St was very helpful. Casey, I think.

Standard Hardware has a showroom at 23rd St. & Thomas and at 91st & Grand Aves. They carry Kohler, so you won't see TOTOs on the floor, but they can get them for you and can help you out and answer questions.

I'm going through the same thing. Our problem is that we're looking for something with a concealed trapway. The new Drake has a "semi-concealed" trapway, which my wife doesn't care for that much, looks-wise---it has a big groove in the base. I'm also nervous about some of the negative reviews for it (shallow, splashy and streaks)--there just aren't many out there on it yet. There is a Kohler Highline with a concealed trapway that looks nice and gets good performance reviews. But Kohler has proprietary parts that can take awhile to obtain.

So...I'm looking closely at the TOTO Vespin II. Easy to repair, good performance reviews, and a graceful skirt (some skirts look like a utility box). But...its more pricey.

Sigh...its a pain finding just the right one. Good luck
 

Stinker

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Thanks for the insight! I've read that toto's have specialized parts too- requiring a 2-3 week delivery time as big box doesn't carry them. Is that true?

I've read LOTS of reviews now on the new Drakes- from many different sites- all complaining about the same thing- shallow water & bowl, dirty/streaks, clogs. I know there's negative reviews on every product- but this seems to have more than the others... it's very frustrating and time consuming to figure out which way to go!
 

azrichter

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Thanks for the insight! I've read that toto's have specialized parts too- requiring a 2-3 week delivery time as big box doesn't carry them. Is that true?

I've read LOTS of reviews now on the new Drakes- from many different sites- all complaining about the same thing- shallow water & bowl, dirty/streaks, clogs. I know there's negative reviews on every product- but this seems to have more than the others... it's very frustrating and time consuming to figure out which way to go!

Right...it is frustrating---its one of those items you want to get right, because you live with it and use it every day.
People at the plumbing supplies said that TOTO parts can be found on the shelf at hardware/home stores. The ones I've looked at have a standard flapper and Korky fill valves. AS and Kohler, not so much. Kohler being the trickiest to find parts for.

If my toilet was tucked where the base didn't show, I'd get an original Drake. But we just don't like the exposed trapway.
BTW... the associate at Central Supply said that TOTO will resume building the old Drake models as the Drake "Legacy". It was widely loved, and contractors are asking for them. I don't know if that's true but she was confident in that. Even so, she seemed to think that the original Drake CST744 can still be found.
 

Terry

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The CST744 can CST743 were an easy sell. They sold themselves.
I don't think I will be selling many of the CST746 Dynamax Drakes.
The CST454 Drake II and the Vespin II are an ungrade to the "Legacy" Drakes, if that's what they will be calling them.

Thanks for asking about shipping. I don't as the added cost makes no sense and they break too often. The stuff I get locally is perfect, but handing it off to a delivery service hasn't worked for me. I stay local to the Seattle area for my sales. Local is always better for things like this.
 

azrichter

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If we were to buy a Kohler (we like the looks and reviews of the Highline k-76301), I'd order a set of repair parts (a fill valve and flush tower and possibly bolt and tank gaskets) to keep ready on the shelf, just in case. You'll probably need them eventually anyway.

In fact, I've found this to be a good idea even if the toilet has standard parts. Toilets almost ALWAYS fail after the stores close when you have a house full of guests!

Compare the cost (and availability) of those parts as part of your research. This might give you a nudge as to which direction you should go.
 

BurlingtonChampion

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We have both the American Standard and Toto Ultramax I and Ultramax II in the house for several years (one-piece) and found the both perform well. Findings:
1) the American Standard did the phantom flush thing for years, we replaced the seal gasket several times. Finally we dismounted the flush valve from the tank and the problem was that the it was not what the forum said, it was worse! The ceramic surface to which the flush-valve mount ring is clamped has roughness (like 100 grit sandpaper), waviness (1/2mm), a peak (1mm), even bits of ceramic from manufacture that were not cleaned-off and are sintered onto the seal surface. I don't think the gasket has any ability to seal given the poor surface prep. I would like to send you pictures. I tried a buna gasket but it was too stiff. I am trying a cork gasket, but I suspect it will not survive continuous immersion. I could not find a sheet of neoprene at any local hardware stores. a work in progress.
2) Toto installs and works, no fussing at all
3) Toto seem to be quieter, if that matters in your location
4) Toto is smaller, if you need to install in a small space, it looks proportional.

Champion flush valve mount (6).JPG
 

Jadnashua

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One of the issues with AS stuff sold in big box stores is lack of Qa/QC from the empirical data from people on this site.

Assembly lines produce pretty consistent stuff, but there are exceptions. Seems to get the good prices, the big box stores volume is one part of it, but accepting stuff without that QA/QC check may be another part of it.
 

Stinker

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Does anyone know when the 'new' original drake (ie- CST744 remake) will be coming out and available? OR- if they'll be re-doing the Ultramax with a deeper bowl and more surface area?
Thanks!
 

Jadnashua

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On today's low flush toilets, you can't really have a bigger area AND a deeper bowl (assuming you're talking about the water) as you need to be able to empty the entire bowl's contents, and there's a limit on how much you can put in there and maintain the restrictions on volume. You could make it deeper but narrower, or maybe limit how much bowl washing you do, but that has issues, too.
 
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