Check valve bad, burnt up well motor

[Marcella Bonner]

Hello, I am new to the group but have a very stressful situation. I have a 2hp Schaefer legend submersible well pump and my well is not working. From my research I think the check valve went bad and burnt up the pump and melted the pvc pipe and now the pump is dead and no one can retrieve it. They say I need a new well. The well was drilled exactly 1.5 yrs ago. I think the well driller should put a new well in for free. How do I convince him of this? I have two wells on my property my first well serves my house and has already had a check Valve go bad. Now my horse barn well is having this issue. I feel there is some fault of the check valve quality. I think it is a Franklin electric valve but don’t know. That is what my electric box says. I am prepared to hire an attorney. This well cost me 21k and I am out of my mind. I have 8 horses with no water and have been trucking 55 gallon drums of water to the barn. Please advise if you can. The well contract is not good and says 2 year warranty on the amount of water coming out and one year in parts and equipment. Thank you

 

[Fitter30]

How deep is the well? Know the min and max of the water level? How do they know the pipe is melted? Guess they think check failed closed and pump ran to failure.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/stuck-deep-well-pump-is-this-a-normal-fix.79502/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Hello, I am new to the group but have a very stressful situation. I have a 2hp Schaefer legend submersible well pump and my well is not working. From my research I think the check valve went bad and burnt up the pump and melted the pvc pipe and now the pump is dead and no one can retrieve it.

What happened when they pulled up the pipe?

If the pipe broke near the pump, they would shove the old pump down, and put in a new pump above.

How deep is the well? What diameter? What material is the casing?

 

[Marcella Bonner]

How deep is the well? Know the min and max of the water level? How do they know the pipe is melted? Guess they think check failed closed and pump ran to failure.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/stuck-deep-well-pump-is-this-a-normal-fix.79502/

Hi Fitter, It is funny you reference this article, I read this very one. The well is probably 35o ft. I don't know the min/max water level. The contractor is guessing the pipe is melted because two weeks ago the water was really hot and black, then it went away. Now well doesn't work and they can't pull the pump up.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

What happened when they pulled up the pipe?

If the pipe broke near the pump, they would shove the old pump down, and put in a new pump above.

How deep is the well? What diameter? What material is the casing?

 

[LLigetfa]

If the casing is 4 inch PVC then it is likely the heat softened the casing and it collapsed on the pump.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Hi, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your knowledge. The casing is PVC. I think the pump melted the PVC right near the pump head (this is my guess). They were only able to pull on the pump about 12 ft before it got stuck. This is a 300ft drilled well. No one has pulled up the PVC pipe and they can't get the pump out. Are you suggesting they pull up 300ft of PVC? or take it apart by the cupling (as reference in previous article). The contractor stopped when the pump didn't move past 12ft because I didn't want the driller to know I had an independent contractor look at his work so I didn't push the issue. The contractor said you can cut the pump off--let it sink to the bottom and put a new pump on, but he said it never ends up working right in the long run. Why would this be true? At this point, I didn't know what to do. So I thanked him for his time and called the original company who installed the well.

The driller/original well installer is coming tomorrow to "diagnose" the problem. I am trying to get prepared to fight him when he tells me I need a new $21K well and nothing is covered under warranty. My warranty states that only equipment and parts is under warranty for one year and only the quantity of water produced is under warranty for 2 years. I have no idea what this means, except they will say it is a bad check valve and now motor is burn and you must pay for all of it. I am 1.5yrs from the date of installation.

In other words, I want to be an educated woman when he tries to tell me something that makes no sense, i am really mad! I think the pipe is 4inch diameter? I might be wrong on that. It is a 2HP commercial franklin electric pump that services my horse barn. I may not have answered your questions, but this is what I know. I have the pump model number because I took a picture of it laying on the ground before they installed it. I don't know anything about the check valve.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

If the casing is 4 inch PVC then it is likely the heat softened the casing and it collapsed on the pump.

Yes, Yes, this is exactly what I think happened, per the nice man who came to my cries for help yesterday when my horses had no water. It is 4inches I believe is what the man said. So what do I do now?

 

[Reach4]

I think the pipe is 4inch diameter?

Measure the outside diameter. 4 inch would be about 4.5 inches OD.

You can use a tape measure around the pipe, or mark a piece of string, and measure the distance between marks.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Measure the outside diameter. 4 inch would be about 4.5 inches OD.

You can use a tape measure around the pipe, or mark a piece of string, and measure the distance between marks.

Confirmed: It is a 4 inch pipe, just measured.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Franklin had some check valve problems a couple years back but the problem was the valve would not seat and would cause water to run back through the pump....the pump would short cycle and destroy itself very quickly. On a 2hp it would have tripped the control box. I doubt that is what happened to you. To melt the casing, which does happen from time to time and usually results in needing a new well, the pump would need to run for a while without moving any water....a dead head situation. I see this if someone puts a valve or filter or restriction in the plumbing BEFORE the pressure switch. It also happens when the well line to the house freezes. It is possible for a check valve poppet to dislodge and seat in the pipe above it and cause this but very rare (and not like the franklin check valve failures I've seen). Did you have any sort of valve between well pump and switch...any chance anything froze?

 

[LLigetfa]

To melt the casing, which does happen from time to time and usually results in needing a new well, the pump would need to run for a while without moving any water....a dead head situation.

Another possibility is a split pipe that causes the pump to run constantly and recirculate the water. A clue is that water drawn from a cold water tap is warm.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Another possibility is a split pipe that causes the pump to run constantly and recirculate the water. A clue is that water drawn from a cold water tap is warm.

Yep good point....I had this happen a few years ago when a certain pump control valve company changed materials/design or their in well.valves. they split and started leaking in the well....luckily I didn't melt any wells....in just had to go fishing a few times.

I would think if it was a split pipe it would have gone on and broken when they tried to pull the pump. In this case the only thing to do is pull until something breaks and try to get out as much as you can....try to see what happened. It's hard to point fingers when you can't exactly be sure of what happened.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Yep good point....I had this happen a few years ago when a certain pump control valve company changed materials/design or their in well.valves. they split and started leaking in the well....luckily I didn't melt any wells....in just had to go fishing a few times.

I would think if it was a split pipe it would have gone on and broken when they tried to pull the pump. In this case the only thing to do is pull until something breaks and try to get out as much as you can....try to see what happened. It's hard to point fingers when you can't exactly be sure of what happened.

VA Well Driller, good point. I think we need to know more. I am just guessing. The only clue I have is that 1 1/2 weeks ago, I turned on the water and the water was black and hot. In fact there was even some steam. I thought it was just hot that day and the hose was hot, but looking back, I wonder if the water got hot as it crossed over the hot pump? Then for the last 10 days the water has been fine. There is no hot water option in the barn, just cold. No circuit breaker blew and nothing else seemed amiss.

If we can pull the pump out, then how do we know what happened, with a camera? If the pipe did split-how will we know it split and is broken? It may have broken but we wouldn't know because it is 275ft deep, we did not put a camera in the line because couldn't get the pump up. How do you think we will know what happened? The contractor told me he thought the check valve failed allowing the water to drain back to the ground and the pump never shut off because of the check valve failure. Made sense to me.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Franklin had some check valve problems a couple years back but the problem was the valve would not seat and would cause water to run back through the pump....the pump would short cycle and destroy itself very quickly. On a 2hp it would have tripped the control box. I doubt that is what happened to you. To melt the casing, which does happen from time to time and usually results in needing a new well, the pump would need to run for a while without moving any water....a dead head situation. I see this if someone puts a valve or filter or restriction in the plumbing BEFORE the pressure switch. It also happens when the well line to the house freezes. It is possible for a check valve poppet to dislodge and seat in the pipe above it and cause this but very rare (and not like the franklin check valve failures I've seen). Did you have any sort of valve between well pump and switch...any chance anything froze?

Do you mean weather related freezing? No the weather has been reasonable here. There is no filter or any restriction that I know of, at least not that I put in place.

Maybe it is not a franklin valve. I checked the technical manual on the pump and the valve doesn't come with it, you must purchase it seperately. The 2HP pump must have a check valve per the specification. I wonder if they used a different manufacturer's check valve and that is what malfunctioned? This same company installed my well at my house 5 years ago and their check valve failed about 9months after was installed, they fixed it and said they "always fail." That's what has me wondering.. I am by no means any well expert, just not trying to get robbed.

 

[VAWellDriller]

You may never know what happened....there are a few small cameras on the market but not likely to be able to get inside 4" casing with pump and drop pipe installed. That's a situation where you'll end up with a stuck camera too. Let the original installer come out and see what they say first. With a 4" well there aren't a lot of good options. You can pull real hard it the pump is set on steel pipe....I have done that a couple times and ended cracking or breaking the well casing and ruining the well. If its hung on pvc or poly you will likely break the drop pipe and need to get a new well drilled. If it breaks it may be with a try to install another pump over the stuck one and see it there is room for that to work.....just depends on lots of things.

Couple questions...did you call anybody or check anything out back when the hot water came out?? That was a dead giveaway something bad was wrong. Why didn't you call the original installer back first.? Does this pump have a variable speed controller installed?

 

[Marcella Bonner]

You may never know what happened....there are a few small cameras on the market but not likely to be able to get inside 4" casing with pump and drop pipe installed. That's a situation where you'll end up with a stuck camera too. Let the original installer come out and see what they say first. With a 4" well there aren't a lot of good options. You can pull real hard it the pump is set on steel pipe....I have done that a couple times and ended cracking or breaking the well casing and ruining the well. If its hung on pvc or poly you will likely break the drop pipe and need to get a new well drilled. If it breaks it may be with a try to install another pump over the stuck one and see it there is room for that to work.....just depends on lots of things.

Couple questions...did you call anybody or check anything out back when the hot water came out?? That was a dead giveaway something bad was wrong. Why didn't you call the original installer back first.? Does this pump have a variable speed controller installed?

Good Questions--1. When the hot water came out, it was for one night when filling horse buckets with water. Two of the buckets had black hot water. I thought that was weird. I let the water run a bit and it all went away. I checked the pump house, the electric franklin box looked normal, there was no noises or leaks in the pump house. The next day, I was ready to call the installer, but it never came back. I just thought it was one of those things. But obviously that was the beginning of the end. Not sure how this worked for another 1 1/2 weeks.

2. I did call the original installer the minute the pump didn't work. But they did a NO SHOW. NO call back, NO show, no nothing!! So I called another contractor when it started getting really late and I had no water, businesses were closing for the weekend. I found a contractor and asked if he could help me try to fix the problem. Once he tried pulling the pump up and nothing happened he said I was better off trying to get the original driller out to do the work, because maybe it would be covered under warranty. He said he thought I needed a new well. he could try putting on another motor but they never really end up working very good. He was a good old boy, nice guy. I plan to have him drill the well if it comes to this. For what it is worth, The warranty doesn't look like it is anything. Everything expired regarding the parts after one year-magically-it is 1.5years.

Supposedly, the original installer is coming tomorrow at 8am after he left me stranded all weekend.

3. I looked up the pump on Franklin's website but I don't know if it has variable speed controller or not. They are using different language than that. It does say it has pump protection for no water. This is the pump:
Schaefer Tri-Seal Legend Submersible Pumps
GPM HP Stages Model Order No.
25 2 10 25LD2S4-PE 93732525

Thank you for your help. I understand that I may not know what went wrong-and probably doesn't really matter what went wrong. But what am I supposed to do, drill a new well and pay another $21k? I feel like if I seem like I know what the failure was then maybe they will stand by their product. Probably wishful thinking. What do I say, when they tell me its not their fault, the parts fail and there is nothing they can do. That's what I am trying to figure out.

 

[Valveman]

I agree with VA, you don't have much option with 4" PVC casing. Some places only use 4" casing, but I would never use less than 5" casing for this very reason. I think 4" casing was a bad decision. Who's idea was that?

Once 4" PVC casing is melted, even getting the pump out or pushed to the bottom won't help. The screen or perf in the casing is going to be bad now and water will always be muddy, even if you could get another pump in there.

A 25 GPM, 2HP pump will only lift from a max of 340'. If you pulled the water level down to about 220', that pump will not be able to build to 60 PSI and shut the pump off. It would just sit there and get the water hot until it melted as you described. Most dry well protectors are not sensitive enough to help in this situation.

A bad check valve usually does not cause melting of the casing. My guess is the water level dropped and the pump just couldn't reach 60 PSI and melted down. I would have used a 16 or 18 GPM pump that could still reach 60 PSI even from a water level of 300' or more. Looks like several possibilities for a failure that could have been done differently.

If you call the licensing agency for the pump and well drillers in your state the well company will have to help you somehow. I normally do not recommend that but in this case they may need a little motivation.

 

[VAWellDriller]

I agree with VA, you don't have much option with 4" PVC casing. Some places only use 4" casing, but I would never use less than 5" casing for this very reason. I think 4" casing was a bad decision. Who's idea was that?

Once 4" PVC casing is melted, even getting the pump out or pushed to the bottom won't help. The screen or perf in the casing is going to be bad now and water will always be muddy, even if you could get another pump in there.

A 25 GPM, 2HP pump will only lift from a max of 340'. If you pulled the water level down to about 220', that pump will not be able to build to 60 PSI and shut the pump off. It would just sit there and get the water hot until it melted as you described. Most dry well protectors are not sensitive enough to help in this situation.

A bad check valve usually does not cause melting of the casing. My guess is the water level dropped and the pump just couldn't reach 60 PSI and melted down. I would have used a 16 or 18 GPM pump that could still reach 60 PSI even from a water level of 300' or more. Looks like several possibilities for a failure that could have been done differently.

If you call the licensing agency for the pump and well drillers in your state the well company will have to help you somehow. I normally do not recommend that but in this case they may need a little motivation.

We don't really have enough info to say what series of 2HP pump was appropriate for the well, or even if the screen section is or was damaged. I don't think we have enough info to even say the driller did anything wrong....he may have done some things that aren't advisable; but lots of drillers do that every day. He may be blatantly at fault, but we just don't have enough details to say. I'm curious if there is a drive on it and what it's low end speed was set to. I'm in a mud rotary part of the world where most residential wells are 4 or 4.5" PVC. I won't use 4" because of this reason; though it is perfectly acceptable in the regulations. Truth is, 4.5" casing will melt and do the same thing; I would even guess that 5" may also in the right or should I say wrong circumstances.

I'd like to hear what they found or said when the original installer went back today.

 

[Valveman]

Again I agree with VA. Even 5" or 6" casing will melt and stick the pump if it gets hot enough. The main issue is keeping the pump from getting hot. It takes less than 1 GPM of cool water going past the pump, motor, casing, to keep every thing nice and cool. But you run a 2HP motor with zero flow for an hour, or even a few minutes and the water will get hot. Even running a CSV there is always at least 1 GPM flowing through. That is unless the water level gets deep enough the pump can no longer build to 60 PSI so the pressure switch to shut it off. Or you could pump the well dry and lose prime and get it hot that way. Them maybe there is a hole in the drop pipe, and water just circulates around instead of building to 60 PSI for shut off. Any of these things will get the water hot enough to melt PVC casing.

Without getting the pump out we are just guessing. But a 2HP, 25 GPM pump can only build 340' of head. So I don't think there is anyway to pump a well dry with a pump setting of 350' or more. That also means this pump can only build 17 PSI from a water level of 300', which makes it very possible that the pump is just not strong enough. It can't work if the water level is deeper than about 170', as it can no longer reach 60 and be shut off. Could also be a split in the drop pipe, but that usually circulates more water and takes a lot longer to heat up a well. My guess is still the water level is deeper than the pump was built for. Doesn't matter if it has a CSV or not, if the pump can't build to 60 and shut off it will get hot.