Stuck deep well pump. Is this a normal fix?

[Eric70]

This is my first time owning a home with a well, so I’m still trying to educate myself on everything well-related. Several weeks ago, I noticed I had no water when I turned faucets, showers, etc on. The pressure tank was empty, my pump sounded like it had electricity, yet no water was being fed into the tank. A local Well Drilling Company come out to take a look at what the issue may be, and concluded that the pump was “stuck in the lining/casing ”. This company didn’t have the manpower available for the job (in the event it couldn’t be “unstuck”) so I was referred to another company.

This other company came over, tried with a sledgehammer to unstick the pump, but with no luck. My well is 800’ deep, and from what I understand, the pump is set at about 760’. In order to ultimately get to the pump, they hoist up portions of the PVC casing, and saw through the casing to gain access to the galvanized pipe coupling to unscrew each section of pipe. The couplings on the pipe are set every 20’. So, with my pump set at 760’, and having to do this process every 20’, it looks like it will take 38 times for this process to finally reach my pump. They are planning on replacing the pump, check valves, and the electrical wiring that also have to be cut out every 20’.

I was just curious if this is the “normal” process to unstick a pump in a deep well? It makes sense that if the pump is stuck, you have to have a system to get down to it. In 4-1/2 hours, they were able to get 17 sections of pipe out, so with another 21 sections to go to finally get to the pump, it’s definitely going to be a lot of labor. But, I need water, so it is what it is .

I was just wondering if this is typical in a situation like mine?

Thank you for your time in reading, and replies!

 

[Cacher_Chick]

I have never heard of anyone pulling PVC casing back out the ground. If the pump is stuck and cannot be freed, sometimes they will pull and hammer until the pipe breaks. We dont have wells that deep here, but on occasion a pump will get stuck and the well will be abandoned and a new one drilled.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Eric70]

I have never heard of anyone pulling PVC casing back out the ground. If the pump is stuck and cannot be freed, sometimes they will pull and hammer until the pipe breaks. We dont have wells that deep here, but on occasion a pump will get stuck and the well will be abandoned and a new one drilled.

Yeah, it seems like quite a laborious process, and it doesn’t appear that this Company does this type of job very often (if at all??). The guy said that I’m “lucky” that the PVC casing is free to be raised for this process to occur. He said that even though this is going to be costly, it’s still cheaper than drilling a new well (?). With probably another 8+ hours of labor (at $200 an hour) just to get to the pump, then all the labor involved to replace the pump, check valves, electrical wiring, and add PVC casing to what’s been cut out every 20’...it’s going to be VERY expensive.

I assumed it would be expensive, but I’m just trying to gain peace of mind that this Company is doing the “typical” work to free, and replace, this stuck pump?

 

[LLigetfa]

I don't know what a typical formation would be in Colorado but ISTR there is lots of bedrock so it makes sense the casing would pull up with a stuck pump. It depends on the rock formation in the rock bore as to whether they case it. Casing is used to prevent unstable rock from closing in on the bore but also to seal off bad aquifers. I do wonder if they will be able to put down new casing or if the bore hole will collapse.

The other reason to case to such depth is when it is a long way down to bedrock so going through glacial till. In those cases bentonite slurry is used to stabilize the bore hole but I would think it would grab pretty firmly onto the casing and not pull out.

There are a few well drillers here that might know what formation a well in Colorado might have.
@VAWellDriller
@Texas Wellman
@Boycedrilling

 

[Eric70]

I don't know what a typical formation would be in Colorado but ISTR there is lots of bedrock so it makes sense the casing would pull up with a stuck pump. It depends on the rock formation in the rock bore as to whether they case it. Casing is used to prevent unstable rock from closing in on the bore but also to seal off bad aquifers. I do wonder if they will be able to put down new casing or if the bore hole will collapse.

The other reason to case to such depth is when it is a long way down to bedrock so going through glacial till. In those cases bentonite slurry is used to stabilize the bore hole but I would think it would grab pretty firmly onto the casing and not pull out.

There are a few well drillers here that might know what formation a well in Colorado might have.
@VAWellDriller
@Texas Wellman
@Boycedrilling

Thanks for the reply and providing the information on casing. I didn’t realize I even had casing (nor why it was needed?) until I was told my pump was stuck in it. I live in the mountains, and there are rock outcroppings everywhere in my area, as well as on my property. So it sounds like casing may be necessary in this type of a rocky area?

I’m not sure how they’re going to reconstruct the casing when this is all said and done? They have been hoisting up roughly 25’ of casing at a time, will mark off where they think the pipe coupling is (about every 20’), and will saw about a 1-1/2’ section out of the casing to access the coupling and remove that section of pipe. This process is to be repeated until they finally can get to the pump. The guy said that he plans on “gluing new pieces” of casing to the existing casing to fill in the sections that were cut out.

Do you feel that they may be on the right path by doing what they’re doing??? If so, that would make me feel much better.

 

[Boycedrilling]

What you’ve got is probably a 6” diameter well that has had a 4” PVC liner installed inside the 6” hole. The pump has run out of water. The resulting heat from the pump running dry has MELTED AND DISTORTED the pvc pipe. It is now impossible to pull the pump back up thru the PVC pipe.


I’ve run into this a number of times in rock wells that were low yielding. No it’s not cheap. When you replace the pump you need to have them install a Cycle Stop electronic control. It will shut the pump off if it runs out of water. Unfortunately the lack of a couple hundred dollar electronic add on to you pump is going to cost you five to ten thousand dollars.

 

[Boycedrilling]

I would not try to reuse any thing in the well. It’s cheaper to buy new pvc liner than trying to salvage the old. At least they are not having to drill the liner and pump out.

Ask them about going in with 4 1/2” ID liner instead of 4”.

Also if slots were cut in the liner ABOVE the pump setting level, that could have caused the problem.

Now I’m not there on site and don’t know the exact conditions, but I can pull a pump and liner like that in under 8 hours Yourjust sawingeverything apart with a sawsall. Costs more to try and salvage anything.

 

[Eric70]

What you’ve got is probably a 6” diameter well that has had a 4” PVC liner installed inside the 6” hole. The pump has run out of water. The resulting heat from the pump running dry has MELTED AND DISTORTED the pvc pipe. It is now impossible to pull the pump back up thru the PVC pipe.


I’ve run into this a number of times in rock wells that were low yielding. No it’s not cheap. When you replace the pump you need to have them install a Cycle Stop electronic control. It will shut the pump off if it runs out of water. Unfortunately the lack of a couple hundred dollar electronic add on to you pump is going to cost you five to ten thousand dollars.

Thank you very much for your reply and making sense of this process! I believe the first Well Drilling Company did mention that the PVC liner was 4”, and the pump was 3-?/?”, and didn’t have much “wiggle room” (thus it got stuck). Your explanation of the heat from the running pump melting and distorting the PVC pipe makes total sense. I started to run out of water when a new iron filter backwash system was installed months ago that used 100+ gallons of water each cycle. I would come home after a backwash to no water and a constantly running pump. I would assume that was ultimately the culprit?

I did mention to this Company doing the work that I definitely want the Cycle Stop Control to shut the pump off if there’s no water.

I will ask them to install the larger 4-1/2” liner as well. Seems that may give the pump a bit more room between the liner? Hopefully they will agree to installing a completely new liner, versus reconstructing the old one.

Sounds like what they’re doing is really the only option they have (other than drilling a new well?). If so, I know it will be very costly, yet I just wanted peace of mind that they’re on the usual path for something like this.

Thanks once again for your reply and sharing your expertise!

 

[Eric70]

Ask them about going in with 4 1/2” ID liner instead of 4”..

The drilling company is back on the job, and I asked if he could replace the existing 4” liner with a 4-1/2”. He said 4” is as big as the well casing would allow. I did ask about just replacing the entire PVC liner, versus what he was planning on doing (gluing new PVC sections to the existing 23-year old liner). He seemed receptive to that idea...which, even if it costs me more money, I would feel better about.

 

[Boycedrilling]

The problem with glueing the pvc liner is getting the glue to hold the pipe together while lowering it into the well. This is something drillers learn the hard way. Glue joint pvc is cheaper than spline joint liner pvc. You have to add screws to the glue jointed pvc to get it to hold together while the glue sets up. You’re not going to wait a half hour for every 20 ft joint for the glue to set. If you don’t “glue and screw”, you get about 200 ft of liner in the hole before you hear a “whoooosh” from a glue joint pulling apart and part of the liner falling down the hole. Then it’s pull it back out and fish the dropped pieces out of the bottom of the hole.

Long story short. Use splined joint pvc pipe specifically made for well liner. And if you ever have to pull the liner, you can pull the splines back out of the joint and pull it apart.

 

[Eric70]

The problem with glueing the pvc liner is getting the glue to hold the pipe together while lowering it into the well. This is something drillers learn the hard way. Glue joint pvc is cheaper than spline joint liner pvc. You have to add screws to the glue jointed pvc to get it to hold together while the glue sets up. You’re not going to wait a half hour for every 20 ft joint for the glue to set. If you don’t “glue and screw”, you get about 200 ft of liner in the hole before you hear a “whoooosh” from a glue joint pulling apart and part of the liner falling down the hole. Then it’s pull it back out and fish the dropped pieces out of the bottom of the hole.

Long story short. Use splined joint pvc pipe specifically made for well liner. And if you ever have to pull the liner, you can pull the splines back out of the joint and pull it apart.

Thanks again for your reply! They were able to finally get to the pump (it was around 700’ deep) and it was definitely “stuck”. The PVC liner was melted through the entirety of the pumps length, and the guy said he’s never seen it so bad in 38-years of doing this work.

Looks like he’s on your same page, fortunately, in gluing new PVC couplings onto the old PVC liner. He applied a dark blue glue to the PVC pipe and coupling, and then drilled in two screws. He mentioned doing that would (as you said) save time in not having to wait for the glue to dry.

I’m (finally) starting to understand the process, and with a pump that had literally melted through the PVC lining, it makes sense that they did what they had to do to access it. They’re hoping to get the 800’ of lining back in today, and the start dropping in the new pump. I had a 2 HP Gould in previously, and he’s replacing that with a FPS 1.5 HP 3-Wire, 230 V pump. Hopefully, by replacing the pump and check valves, this will not only fix my issue of not having water (my main priority!) yet will also solve the loud, obnoxious water hammers that occurs when my pressure tank cuts out.

Fingers are crossed!!!!

 

[Valveman]

I have seen that before where the casing looks like it was shrink wrapped around the pump/motor. You really need a dry well protection relay like a Cycle Sensor to keep that from happening again.

 

[Reach4]

Maybe they should set the pump a bit deeper this time. That does not mean that you would not want dry-well protection.

Where will the new liner be slotted? You would like to have the pump above the slots if practical.

 

[Eric70]

I have seen that before where the casing looks like it was shrink wrapped around the pump/motor. You really need a dry well protection relay like a Cycle Sensor to keep that from happening again.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what it looks like. I will definitely be putting on a Cycle Sensor. As this guy told me, a $300 Cycle Sensor would have prevented this from happening, and saved me whatever this ordeal will eventually cost.

 

[Eric70]

Maybe they should set the pump a bit deeper this time. That does not mean that you would not want dry-well protection.

Where will the new liner be slotted? You would like to have the pump above the slots if practical.

I’m not familiar with “slots” (I’m still learning a lot about wells!) but I’ll check with him on where the liner will be slotted. When I first started running out of water months ago, I asked a local Well Company whether my pump could be dropped, and he said that it wouldn’t make any difference. I can’t recall his reasoning, but essentially he said that with my pump currently at 760’ (and my well being 800’) that dropping it another 40’ wouldn’t do any more good.

 

[Reach4]

I can’t recall his reasoning, but essentially he said that with my pump currently at 760’ (and my well being 800’) that dropping it another 40’ wouldn’t do any more good.

760 seems good. You had earlier said "(it was around 700’ deep)". Putting the pump too low could cause pumping sediment. 20 ft off of the bottom is fairly common, but for such a deep well, that could be different.

 

[Eric70]

Thanks again for everyone’s replies. I’m happy to say that, after 27 days of having no water, my well is finally back up and running. He replaced my 2HP Goulds pump with a FPS 5GPM 3200 Series (1.5 HP, 3-Wire, 230V). Also replaced the (3) check valves, and (to hopefully avoid overheating my pump in the future) a Littelfuse PumpSaver. Lots of iron and sediment in the water, but I’m hoping that a few backwashes will help that?

One issue I’ve been having that I was HOPING would be fixed through this process is the very loud series of “bangs” that occur when my pressure tank cuts-out. I was led to believe that this “hammering” might be associated with a failed check valve in the well, yet having just put new ones in, that’s obviously not the case. I was curious if the banging may be associated with the pressure tank?? Any ideas?

 

[Reach4]

I was led to believe that this “hammering” might be associated with a failed check valve in the well, yet having just put new ones in, that’s obviously not the case.

If you only had a check valve at the bottom, you probably would not get those bangs. I understand that your pump is at 760 ft.

Do you have an above-ground check valve too?

 

[Eric70]

If you only had a check valve at the bottom, you probably would not get those bangs. I understand that your pump is at 760 ft.

Do you have an above-ground check valve too?

Yes, the pump is at 760’. I asked him about the need for the multiple check valves, and his response was that’s “the way I’ve always done it”. I’ve read on this forum the pro’s and con’s of multiple check valves, yet the two Well Companies that came over both mentioned they install wells with a check valve every 200’ or so. And they both were convinced that a bad check valve(s) were causing the water hammer. So I was very disappointed to hear those bangs at pressure tank cut-out when this process was complete. I really don’t know what to believe anymore.

When this water hammer first started, I had several Plumbers come over to try and figure it out. Initially, there was a check valve installed on the pipe leading into the pressure tank. One of the Plumber’s thought that the check valve just needed to be replaced with a new one, yet that didn’t work. The next Plumber thought I didn’t need a check valve there, and that it was possibly causing the hammer. So, he took it out, and that didn’t fix the hammer either. So, as it stands, I have no check valve above-ground.

I never would have imagined that a water hammer would be so difficult to diagnose, and fix, but it certainly has been!

 

[Valveman]

What is the static water level? How much water is in the well?