Will Kohler pressure assist Wellworth outperform Toto Ultramax?

[JeannetteC]

I've been a Toto fan for a long time. In my current house, I have two Toto Ultramax toilets purchased 8 years ago. The Toto in the middle of the house on a 50 x 150 lot performs well. The Toto in the rear of the house has never been good and requires plunging at least twice per week. I've had plumbers check the main line, I use hydrochloric acid every 6 months to get rid of the scale (I have very hard water), I've cleaned the rim holes and there is some improvement but we still need the plunger.

I wonder if a pressure assist toilet will perform better. I researched several brands and the Kohler Wellworth Classic K3505 1.6 gallon seems to have the best consumer ratings from Home Depot and Online and doesn't seem to have cleaning problems. The Kohler Highline Pressure Assist which Terry Love recommends is 2" higher than our Toto and my husband prefers the lower seat.

Do you think the pressure assist toilet will work better than my Toto Ultramax in my situation? Thanks!

Kohler pressure assist in a commercial bathroom.

 

[Terry]

Any pressure assist toilet will work better than a gravity toilet as far as performance goes. Compressed water being forced out with an air charge does wonders. The K-3493 and the K-3505 pressure assist are two of those.

I don't go by the Depot and online sell reviews much, as most of them only have that one experience they are writing in about. They buy something and by golly it works! I see products all the time on a daily basis, and go out on service calls, often replacing the "highly" rated products you see on those sites.

If you're talking gravity toilets, the recent Wellworth is much better than they were eight years ago. The pressure assist Highline has a lot of force if that is what you need. If you have one Ultramax that is giving you problems, I would guess that there is something in the trapway that a good closet auger could push out. Even something like Q-Tips can cause problems. Anything that slows down the rush of water and catches on paper. We use a commercial closet auger with a 1-5/8" end on it. Most of the home center augers are 7/8".

Normally I give the edge to the Ultramax over the Wellworth for gravity.

TOTO Ultramax

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WJcandee]

If you have to plunge one Ultramax and don't have to plunge the other and they are identical, I would have the "poorly performing" one augered properly with a closet auger, maybe even pulled and the trap checked. And if you pull it, I would pour a bunch of water down the closet bend to see if it, in fact, is backing up or draining slowly.

Terry has a great photo of a GI Joe that he pulled from a toilet after removing the toilet from its base and inspecting the outflow hole in an effort to fix that "poorly performing" toilet. Reinstalled without the GI Joe in it, it worked fine!

Beware the scam plumbers mentioned in the post below who just want your money, and not to do a competent job.

The full story and photo is here: https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/gi-joe-what-we-find-in-toilets.14329/

 

[JeannetteC]

Thank you, Terry and Wise One for all the good input. We have used two different augers on the Ultramax and a plumber used his. We found nothing with the augers although the toilet was not removed for a visual check. The other Ultramax isn't a problem probably because we don't poop in it so it's not really put to the test. The flushes of the two toilets are similar and, on occasion, we have had to use a plunger for the "good" Ultramax.
I think I will try a pressure assist toilet to see if that helps. Thank you.

 

[WJcandee]

The reason we're leaning towards a clog or such is that we routinely use copious amounts of Charmin Ultra Soft, which is the cloggiest paper you can use, and really never have trouble with our Totos, including one that has a similar flush to the Ultramax. So it's weird.

The only other question I have is whether you are starting with a properly-refilled bowl. That can make an enormous difference. Is the little rubber hose from the fill valve to the overflow riser (the vertical plastic pipe connected to the flush valve) properly spitting water into the riser (and thus down into the bowl for refill)?

 

[Jadnashua]

It's highly likely that it's either a fill problem as said earlier, the wrong or incorrectly adjusted flapper, or something in the trapway.

It's not hard to remove the toilet, and all you need is a new wax ring for a couple of bucks. Before I'd splurge on a new toilet, I'd check that the one I had was actually adjusted properly (it's not rocket science!) and that there was nothing in the trapway. Once you have it off, it's easier to check that.

While you have it off, you could also check that there's nothing in the drain pipe that would affect a new toilet's ability to flush properly, too. In the one you have, take a large bucket and SLOWLY pour water down it. The level might rise slightly, but it should not rise much. If you pour too quickly, it will 'flush', but not if you go slow. If it rises much, that's an indication that there's a partial blockage in the pipes and may have nothing to do with the toilet itself.

 

[JeannetteC]

Several times, we've poured 5 gallons of water down the toilet slowly and there's no indication of a blockage. We keep using the auger just in case there is a blockage but nothing comes out. We are in California and need to save water. All toilet paper has, for years, gone into a bin so that we don't flush for pee and so that we don't create any blockage. The toilet bowl refills well. The rubber hose is centered over the refill tube and fixed with a clip. We installed a new flapper recently which works fine. My plumber was sure there was a blockage in the trapway but, after using his auger and testing, he said there wasn't. I suppose I could have him return and remove the toilet for a visual inspection to see what is really going on. I'd convinced myself that the slope must be off or some other reason the Ultramax wasn't performing. I have an old Kohler in the front of the house that has an incomplete flush but which works OK (two plumbers couldn't get it to work better). I could replace the Ultramax and move the Ultramax to the front bathroom and dump the Kohler.

 

[Reach4]

Several times, we've poured 5 gallons of water down the toilet slowly

Try pouring the 5 gallons from as high as you readily can, and as fast as you dare.

 

[JeannetteC]

My husband got on a step stool and poured a 5 gallon bucket of water upside down as fast as he could flip the bucket. It was like Niagra in there. The water level in the toilet rose almost up to the rim but went down quickly.

 

[Reach4]

My husband got on a step stool and poured a 5 gallon bucket of water upside down as fast as he could flip the bucket. It was like Niagra in there. The water level in the toilet rose almost up to the rim but went down quickly.

Let's hope that washed away something. I hope that toilet flush better now.

Clearly there is not big obstruction, although you could still have something that catches solids.

 

[Jadnashua]

Can you view the plumbing beneath the toilet (hopefully, maybe an open ceiling in the basement)? It sounds like there's either still something in the trap or the slope of the drainage piping is not correct, and there's something there. IF the slope is not correct, you might clear things by snaking the line but it won't help for long...the only real fix for that is to correct it. A pressure-assisted toilet slows down in the flow fairly quickly once it gets into the drain pipe. The outlet of the toilet is slightly over 2" on average, and the piping is at least 3" ID, and could be 4". That, plus, the actual volume of the flush is not huge, and the actual carry is not that much longer with a pressure assist verses a good gravity flush one. The toilet you have is one of the better ones out there...there has to be a reason why it is not performing.

FWIW, do things work better if you hold the flush lever down to empty the whole tank?

When you first look at the toilet, mark where the water level is in the bowl...then, slowly add some...let it sit for say 30-seconds and see if the level rose and stayed there, or returns to the original position. If you do not have the proper fill valve or flapper valve in the toilet, that can affect the proper operation. In one case, it might not flush well, in the other, it would waste water on each flush....just like Goldilocks...it needs to be just right!

 

[JeannetteC]

Dear Jim,

There is no way to view the plumbing beneath the toilet because the house is one story built on slab. The lot is on an incline. The toilet is close to the outside wall of the house. On the other side of the wall is side concrete walk and sewer access. Using the window placement to measure, the floor of the toilet room is 10" higher than the walk and sewer access. I'm not an engineer but a 10" drop should probably be enough slope so perhaps there is something in the slope as you have suggested.

We always hold the flush lever down until the tank is emptied to get maximum water in the bowl. In addition, after my husband poops, he takes water collected in a bucket from the shower (until the water heats up) and dumps that down the bowl to flush the poop out further down the line. Then he refills the bowl with some extra water to its normal level.

This morning, I marked the water level in the bowl with a Q-tip and lipstick. I slowly added some water until the water was about an inch above that lipstick line. The water returned to its previous level in about 10 seconds.

Yesterday, we noted that, after installation of the new flapper, the water level in the tank is about 3/4" lower than it used to be. My husband will adjust the toilet today to see if he can raise the water level. He tried yesterday by turning the screw and the water level went up to the tippy top of the fill tube but did not stay raised after the first flush. The water level is still very high so I'm not sure the water level is the problem.

Perhaps there is something in the trapway or slope after all. You can't know for sure unless you take the toilet off and look. It's like knowing the weather in Los Angeles. You can't trust the predictions, you've got to go to the window. They predicted 91 at the beach yesterday and it was only 77. I've seen the anchor newscasters predict sun when it's raining. They don't have windows in the TV studios. I'd better look.

 

[JeannetteC]

P.S. Is there any merit to emptying the tank and pouring CLR down the fill tube? Could there be a blockage of scale between the fill tube and the rim holes preventing full water flow? We have checked the rim holes and they are open and water is coming out but I read somewhere that using CLR for 24 hours might loosen the scale.

 

[Reach4]

I would consider getting a water softener, regardless of the flushing problem.

I really doubt the flushing problem is the rim holes. I think it is time to lift the toilet to inspect and clean. I think that a drain cleaning specialist would be money well spent.

 

[Terry]

Not flushing can fill waste lines and portions of the toilet with salt.
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/let-it-mellow.49207/

This is three years worth of salt in the drain. We threw the three year old toilet away, and the inner parts were caked in salt.
If you are not flushing toilets in your home, it may be that you are collecting salt crystals. You may want to rethink the way you are saving water.

 

[JeannetteC]

Great photo! Lesson learned.

 

[Jadnashua]

Where I used to work, they tried flushless urinals...a major problem with salt clogging the lines. They probably did not change the 'cartridges' often enough, either. Keeping things diluted can prevent that, or at least radically slow it down.

 

[JeannetteC]

THE RESULT! I had a plumber pull the toilet and the trapway was about 30% clogged with scale and salt. It looked worse than Terry's photo above. He said the toilet is ruined and probably clogged in most of its interior because the hydrochloric acid can't reach the bottom part of the where there is no water. The drain pipe has a negative bend and there is calcium in the elbow about 1/4" deep which he could not scrape out. He would have to break the slab to change the negative bend but he thought that a new toilet will flush fine because the drain pipe is larger than the trapway.

He said we should flush after every pee. I don't have room for a water softener but he suggested Nuvo which softens with citrus rather than salt. I researched alternative softening systems a few years ago and concluded that most aren't really effective for very hard water (which I have). I'll take a look at the Nuvo reviews but I'd really like your opinion.

In California, I must buy a 1.28 gallon toilet. The plumber recommended the Toto Drake or Ultramax. I'll review Terry's recommendations again but do any of you have any preference for one over the other?

 

[Reach4]

. I don't have room for a water softener

I guess you are in a place that freezes.

I looked up that Nuvo. It appears that it injects citric acid into the water, and that makes some things stay in solution rather than precipitating out. It is not a softener as such. As a way to keep your toilet and drains from clogging as much, it may be plausible.

 

[JeannetteC]

I am in southern California by the coast where it never freezes. I think I must have room for an outdoor softener but the plumber shook his head. Perhaps the plumber wanted to sell me the Nuvo. The installation cost to attach it to the main line would be $2500 which I thought was way out of line. The consumer reviews on the Nuvo aren't good so I don't think I'll do that (even if I get someone else to install it for a fraction of the cost).