Well producing sediment and reddish water

[Valveman]

If you have a rock wedged between the rock wall and the pump, there is probably nothing you can do. Even if you can get it loose from the rock, the void where the well caved in makes the well diameter so big the air loses velocity and won't lift dirt, much less a rock.

Run a camera and have a look. But many times it is better to just cut your loses, move over and drill a new well. You can easily spend as much trying to get the pump out and the old well working again as a new well would cost. Then even if you get it out you have a well with a void that can still cave in some more.

 

[LennyS]

If you have a rock wedged between the rock wall and the pump, there is probably nothing you can do. Even if you can get it loose from the rock, the void where the well caved in makes the well diameter so big the air loses velocity and won't lift dirt, much less a rock.

Run a camera and have a look. But many times it is better to just cut your loses, move over and drill a new well. You can easily spend as much trying to get the pump out and the old well working again as a new well would cost. Then even if you get it out you have a well with a void that can still cave in some more.

Let’s say I was able to get the pump oute, Could I run well screen and still use the current hole?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LennyS]

It’s a good chance that this well was not drilled with mud at all. Commonly in the norther tier states, the drill rig has a casing hammer installed and we drill and drive the casing thru overburden then continue on with air using a down hole hammer. We will drill and drive a 4” larger surface casing for the surface seal. After the permanent casing has been installed, the surface can is pulled back as the sealing material is installed.

All the mud and sand sediments are probably coming from an interbed in the basalt

What is an “interbed” ?

 

[Valveman]

Let’s say I was able to get the pump oute, Could I run well screen and still use the current hole?

It depends on how big the cave in is. If it is just one rock in the way, sure. But if a bunch has sluffed off down the well, it will be hard to clean it out and get casing in there.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Basalt is lava that has cooled and solidified. Where I live we have 6,000 to 12,000 feet of basalt above the underlying sedimentary formations. The basalt flow predominantly came out of vents rather than volcanic eruptions. The lava was very liquid rather than the lava oozing like you see in Hawaii.

Geologists estimate that the flows were moving in the 30 mph area to spread the 100+ miles that they extend from the vents. Each individual flow is anywhere from 50 to 250 feet thick.

Individual flows have been named and can be identified by their differing chemical composition. I regularly send chips sample the the WSU Geology lab for identification thru XRF analysis . Some of the wells I drill are required to be cased past a specific flow or to not extend past a specific flow.


When a new lava flow was deposited the bottom cooled very fast. Lots of fractures and seams. The interior of the flow can form columnar basalt. It has a polygonal vertical form about 1 to 3 feet in diameter. If it cooled very slowly it might be just a massivive sold rock with no joints, seams or fractures. The top part of an individual flow cooled faster being exposed to air. Any gasses in the flow rose to the top and formed bubbles, called vesicular basalt. If basalt flows into standing water, it forms blobs, called pillow basalt.

There was time in between individual flows. It may have been days, years, or thousands of years. The earth still rotated around the sun. We had seasons, we had rain and snow. We had lakes form. We had trees and vegetation grow. I have had wood chips come out from a clay bed 400-750 below the top layer of basalt. Sometimes the wood is charred. Sometimes it looks like wood on top of the ground. A friend of mine has a rock shop. He specializes in petrified wood.

Most water bearing zones in basalt formations are found in the interbeds. They are the fractured and rubbley part of the bottom on one flow and the vesicular pourous top of the next lower flow. There can be a cinder bed in between the flows from a volcanic eruption, or a layer of volcanic ash, or a layer of soil or even clay or lake bottom muck. I have drilled thru clay beds in between basalt flows that are any where from a few feet thick to 50 feet or more thick. Usually the brown, tan and yellow clays aren’t much of a problem. The blue and green clays have a tendency to be highly reactive to water and swell and slough in.

I have wells that will produce over 2000 gpm from just a 2 foot thick zone.

 

[Reach4]

What is an “interbed” ?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/interbedded

 

[LennyS]

I talked to the company who drilled the well and they didn’t say much. Basically said if I can make it to summer they may be able to come out and try something.

So, I called another well driller who was extremely talkative and helpful. He says worse case we could drop another pump down same hole but would need to camera the hole to see what the potential for another cave in is. This guy will work all winter and service well all winter.

 

[LennyS]

Basalt is lava that has cooled and solidified. Where I live we have 6,000 to 12,000 feet of basalt above the underlying sedimentary formations. The basalt flow predominantly came out of vents rather than volcanic eruptions. The lava was very liquid rather than the lava oozing like you see in Hawaii.

Geologists estimate that the flows were moving in the 30 mph area to spread the 100+ miles that they extend from the vents. Each individual flow is anywhere from 50 to 250 feet thick.

Individual flows have been named and can be identified by their differing chemical composition. I regularly send chips sample the the WSU Geology lab for identification thru XRF analysis . Some of the wells I drill are required to be cased past a specific flow or to not extend past a specific flow.


When a new lava flow was deposited the bottom cooled very fast. Lots of fractures and seams. The interior of the flow can form columnar basalt. It has a polygonal vertical form about 1 to 3 feet in diameter. If it cooled very slowly it might be just a massivive sold rock with no joints, seams or fractures. The top part of an individual flow cooled faster being exposed to air. Any gasses in the flow rose to the top and formed bubbles, called vesicular basalt. If basalt flows into standing water, it forms blobs, called pillow basalt.

There was time in between individual flows. It may have been days, years, or thousands of years. The earth still rotated around the sun. We had seasons, we had rain and snow. We had lakes form. We had trees and vegetation grow. I have had wood chips come out from a clay bed 400-750 below the top layer of basalt. Sometimes the wood is charred. Sometimes it looks like wood on top of the ground. A friend of mine has a rock shop. He specializes in petrified wood.

Most water bearing zones in basalt formations are found in the interbeds. They are the fractured and rubbley part of the bottom on one flow and the vesicular pourous top of the next lower flow. There can be a cinder bed in between the flows from a volcanic eruption, or a layer of volcanic ash, or a layer of soil or even clay or lake bottom muck. I have drilled thru clay beds in between basalt flows that are any where from a few feet thick to 50 feet or more thick. Usually the brown, tan and yellow clays aren’t much of a problem. The blue and green clays have a tendency to be highly reactive to water and swell and slough in.

I have wells that will produce over 2000 gpm from just a 2 foot thick zone.

That’s amazing info, simply extraordinary. Thank you guys so much for your info, it’s greakty appreciated!

 

[LennyS]

I guess until the camera shows up, not much is going to happen. Currently the water is fair but not drinkable.

 

[LennyS]

Water color seems to be holding steady at slightly tinted. No doubt it has maintained a better consistent quality since we moved in. Occasionally we may get a few minutes here and there of color so I went to basement to run the hose off the pressure tank way throttled down to about 1-2 gallons a minute and within 5 minutes the water volume dropped in half so I quickly shut it off and the pressure tank was at 20 or less. I let it sit for a few minutes and tried it again (not to try an clean it up but just normal usage) and it could hardly raise the pressure. I gave it an hr and it seemed to pump right up like normal. The things that I described, what do they mean? Is the well pump inlet partially plugged with sediment? Thermal protection kicking in and protecting itself? My camera will be here Monday so maybe that can help shed some light on my situation. I told my family, no baths and short short showers because we’re in water conservation mode till we figure this out. I find I hard to believe that it was drawing in sediment that just do happened to be falling past the pump inlet. Personally, I think it’s sitting in sediment up over the pump and may be completely burried!

Additional note: when I just ran the hose, I ran most of it in and out of buckets so I was able to sit and watch what was coming out. Large pieces of rock come through. Some pieces 1/8” or maybe slightly larger. I was surprised to see such large particles making it through the pump. Needless to say, I think the pump has been abused and probably will have a greatly reduced lifespan.

 

[LennyS]

Well, even with our family in water conservation mode, the pump shut itself off and no water. Half hr later it’s on again so I assume the thermal protection is working?

Now we’re going into desperation mode! All water usage spread out. No toilet flushing unless solids need to go by by etc,

Monday i get my camera. Probably call for well service to pull pump up.

At this point with all the abuse the pump has endured, would it still be advisable to pull pump all the way out, install flow inducer sleeve and drop it back in? If the pump can come out should the well be flushed out by drill rig? Obviously observing the bore hole will answer many questions but I’m just worried what all this will cost. I pulled the well cap off and the well is full. I can see water down at about 25 ft where I’ve measured it multiple times in the past

 

[LLigetfa]

I had my old pump motor get buried in sediment several times and rotor locked by sediment as well. Despite that it lasted for 10 years at which time I used that old pump to develop the well. During the development, I think I moved so much sand through it that it was pretty much worn out and so I replaced it then.

It does sound like your motor was shut down by the thermal overload, probably due to lack of cooling. While my motor was buried in sand, it was still getting cooled because mine is in a casing so bottom fed whereas yours is almost certainly top fed so lacks cooling flow.

 

[LennyS]

New development! In my last post I indicated that the pump shut itself down. I gave it some time and it started up again after I left the breaker off for an hr. Anyways, when it did come back on the water was red as could be and I did not run a drop. This morning I figured I could run maybe 20-30 gallons out and see if it would clear up a tad so I could shower. Since I was running a few buckets in the basement I was looking at the pressure gauge to observe it’s cycle and I noticed that after the pump hit 60 lbs it shut off as it should but the pressure continued to drop with no call for water anywhere in the house. I cannot let the pump cycle like that so I turned off the breaker and now I’m typing this message. Any idea as to the pressure loss. It drops at about the same rate as it cycles on its way up to 60 (40-60 pressure switch)

 

[Boycedrilling]

two Possibilities.

You’ve got some crap in your check valve that’s not letting it seal and water from the pressure tank is leaking back into the well past the check valve and back out the pump intake.

Or, you’ve got a hole in your drop pipe and the water is leaking back out it.

 

[LLigetfa]

I agree with @Boycedrilling . Drop pipe might have been damaged when trying to lift it. What material is the drop pipe? Then again, it could also be stones caught in the check valve.

As a stop-gap until you get to the root of the problem, you could put a check valve in the house before the pressure switch. I would also put a dole valve there to slow the flow to hopefully not motivate the sediment as much.

 

[LennyS]

8:30 tomorrow a well guy is coming out to service the well. He’s gonna send the camera down first but hopes to be able to pull the pump. He said the same about the check valve maybe stuck open from debris. Thanks guys, you guys are the best!

 

[LennyS]

I agree with @Boycedrilling . Drop pipe might have been damaged when trying to lift it. What material is the drop pipe? Then again, it could also be stones caught in the check valve.

As a stop-gap until you get to the root of the problem, you could put a check valve in the house before the pressure switch. I would also put a dole valve there to slow the flow to hopefully not motivate the sediment as much.

Drop pipe is the thicker black poly. The well guy that will be here soon suggested a valve before the pressure tank. He said sometimes while the pump is running, if the close that valve quickly, it can clear out a check valve more often than not. Anyways, I’m very excited to see this get resolved regardless if the pump is stuck or whatever may be the case. It seems like it’s just the nature of a well that there are great variations in geology, equipment and Techniques etc. I’ll post results later!

 

[LLigetfa]

The well guy that will be here soon suggested a valve before the pressure tank. He said sometimes while the pump is running, if the close that valve quickly, it can clear out a check valve more often than not.

A ball valve is very different from a check valve. A check valve auto-closes to keep the water from running back down into the well. Topside check-valves are controversial where some states outlaw them while other states require them. I meant for it to only be stop-gap.

A bad check valve in the pump can cause a surging action on the well which in turn can stir up sediment. If normally clear water is suddenly turbid, one needs to observe the pump cycles to see if the water is rushing back to the well. Aside from causing turbidity, it can also cycle the pump to death. A Cycle Sensor can watch for rapid cycling and well run-dry and protect the pump from damage.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor-general-information

I have a ball valve on the inlet side of my HP tank but that is only so I can service the air injection system without draining the tank. Generally there should not be one before the tank. If an unknowledgeable person closes it without removing power from the pump it could do damage.

 

[Reach4]

A ball valve is very different from a check valve. A check valve auto-closes to keep the water from running back down into the well.

I think the proposed ball valve was just to shake up the possibly leaking check valve to try to free it up. I could envision two strategies:

1. close it with the pressure tank full, let the line cavitate or empty, and then open the valve rapidly to set up a shock powered by the water from the pressure tank.
2. with the pump starting to deliver water slam the valve closed. Set up a water hammer shock on purpose to try to shake something loose.

I am just imagining, and I have no experience or recommendation on this. I think this idea from the pump guy is to give a chance that the pump might not have to be pulled to fix this.

If such a valve were installed, it should be somehow deactivated for normal use after its temporary purpose was exhausted. Even if it was just nylon ties keeping the valve open.

 

[LLigetfa]

I suspect #2, create a high pressure shock wave. Obviously that should not be performed by an untrained person since it deadheads the pump. A shock wave could blow the pipe right off the barb nipple and leave the pump hanging by the wire.