Power from a VFD travels on the skin or surface of the wire like all radio transmissions instead of the core of the wire like anything using normal AC power. So snug connections and grounding are very important.
Strange fault light on Franklin Subdrive 150 (Model 5870204150)
- Thread starter Leeelson
- Start date
Users who are viewing this thread
Power from a VFD travels on the skin or surface of the wire like all radio transmissions instead of the core of the wire like anything using normal AC power. So snug connections and grounding are very important.
What is SQE?
Sponsor
Paid Advertisement
Yeah 9 years is not the norm. But lets say it is. You would spend say $3000 every 9 years on a VFD system. You might spend $2000 every 30 years on a convential system with a large tank OR a CSV. In 30 years you will have spent $12,000 on the VFD or $2,000 on a convential system. That is 6 times the cost for a VFD IF it last 9 years, which many do not.
The pulsing DC voltage from a VFD causes what is called a reflective wave. So the longer the wire the more voltage accumulates. A 230 volt VFD can easily create 1,000 volts at the motor. This is not good for wire rated to handle 600 volts.
The SQE has the inverter part of the VFD in the motor, so I don't think it creates a reflective wave. However, the inverter in the motor now has to communicate with the controler above ground through the same wire that feeds power to the motor. Lose of communication is one of the big problems with the SQE. Although the system is designed to revert back to working like a regular pressure switch when it loses communication. It will cycle on and off with a 15 psi bandwidth 1000 times before it even shows a loss of communication code. So people don't even realize how often the VFD is malfunctioning.
As far as VFDs go the SQE is one of the best IMO. But I think it is now in about generation 7 or more of upgrades since they first came out in about 1999 and it is still not and probably never will be perfected.
Over our ten years of installing them only 2 have failed, both of them were under warranty, one was a Berkeley pump end and the other was the control box.
They will give you a letter & number instead of flashes now for a fault code.
They will give you a letter & number instead of flashes now for a fault code.
Attachments
If I had to buy one of Franklin's constant pressure systems, I would only buy the Subdrive2w, monodrive or the monodriveXT depending on pump size because you can convert it back to a traditional system without pulling the pump if Franklin's special control box goes bad. Until Franklin can come out with parts you can buy at a reasonable price for their special control boxes, they will always be a failure IMO. I rebuild computers as well and they last a long time because you can change out the part that goes bad down the road. I have a Dell Studio XPS gaming computer from 09 with upgrades.
http://franklininthefield.com/2012/11/09/we-dont-compromise-well-actually-you-do/
http://franklininthefield.com/2012/11/09/we-dont-compromise-well-actually-you-do/
Last edited:
Clarification: My installer explained that in the original installation (2006) Franklin provided a 3 HP motor on a 1.5 HP pump (SDQP-18-265) and that he believes that the dip switch settings (sw1--all off) are correct. As a consumer, I doubt that Franklin tech support will talk to me about whether this is correct, but one fact remains: it has worked fine for 9 years and seems to still be OK.
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
Franklin has changed their model designations. However I still have their older brochures and you can also Google sdqp 18 265 to find this.
Franklin electric says the SDQP 18 265 consisted of a SD75 controller a 1.5 hp 240volt 3 phase motor and a 3/4 hp pump end. The controller runs the motor at upto 80 hertz to make the motor turn 4500 Rpm instead of 3200 rpm. This make the pump end perform the same as a 1.5 hp pump end.
You need to decide if Franklin electric is wrong or if your pump man is.
Franklin electric says the SDQP 18 265 consisted of a SD75 controller a 1.5 hp 240volt 3 phase motor and a 3/4 hp pump end. The controller runs the motor at upto 80 hertz to make the motor turn 4500 Rpm instead of 3200 rpm. This make the pump end perform the same as a 1.5 hp pump end.
You need to decide if Franklin electric is wrong or if your pump man is.
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
Are you looking at replacing just the control box or the pump & motor also?
If you just want to replace the controller, you need to understand the following things. The Franklin system is 240 volt 1 phase input. It is 240 volt 3 phsase output. It runs the motor at up to 80 hertz rather than 60 hertz. It uses a 2 psi pressure switch to ramp the motor faster or slower.
You can go to www.driveswarehouse.com and purchase a Hitachi vfd controller to do this for about $250. I have retro fitted the hitachi drive before. I haven't tried to run the hitachi with the Franklin pressure switch system. It can probably be done. The hitachi can be programmed to stair step speeds. The easier option is to just use the hitachi as a phase converter and turn it on and off with a pressure switch. You would need to add a cycle stop or a larger pressure tank also. The third option would be to control the vfd with a 4-20 milliamp pressure transducer. A transducer will run 100-200 dollars.
If you replace the motor also you can go to a conventional system.
Here is the biggest problem I have with vfd systems. They work fantastic, until they don't. When the vfd goes out, and hopefully it doesn't take out the wire and motor also, if it's out of warranty, I have to tell my customer well that box on the wall is $1000-2500 instead of $150-500.
If you just want to replace the controller, you need to understand the following things. The Franklin system is 240 volt 1 phase input. It is 240 volt 3 phsase output. It runs the motor at up to 80 hertz rather than 60 hertz. It uses a 2 psi pressure switch to ramp the motor faster or slower.
You can go to www.driveswarehouse.com and purchase a Hitachi vfd controller to do this for about $250. I have retro fitted the hitachi drive before. I haven't tried to run the hitachi with the Franklin pressure switch system. It can probably be done. The hitachi can be programmed to stair step speeds. The easier option is to just use the hitachi as a phase converter and turn it on and off with a pressure switch. You would need to add a cycle stop or a larger pressure tank also. The third option would be to control the vfd with a 4-20 milliamp pressure transducer. A transducer will run 100-200 dollars.
If you replace the motor also you can go to a conventional system.
Here is the biggest problem I have with vfd systems. They work fantastic, until they don't. When the vfd goes out, and hopefully it doesn't take out the wire and motor also, if it's out of warranty, I have to tell my customer well that box on the wall is $1000-2500 instead of $150-500.
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
You had Asked what a SQE is. That is one of the Grundfos brand vfd systems. I've never installed one new, but I have replaced a few of the controllers.
I've tried (and failed) to find anything by Googling sdqp 18 265, sdqp 18-265, sdqp-18-265. I'd be grateful if you could send a link or scan and upload a brochure. The pump man suggested there were several configurations available, not that I have any reason to believe him. Any evidence of this? Its kind of important to know this (I believe) if I'm to try to replace the pump/motor since I'm not too knowledgeable about sizing.
Here are my thoughts: Both the pump and controller are 9 years old. Seems that if one goes, I'd be better off replacing both with a conventional system including a CSV. This violates the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but if the controller goes, it seems like the Hitachi is the only inexpensive fix and the Hitachi seems (from other's accounts) rather complex to set up.
No matter what I do, I need to find an installer to help me. My original installer doesn't look kindly on conventional systems so the problem will be finding someone who does. I want to be involved in the process, but I need to educate myself on how to check that I'm getting a correctly sized system with reliable components. I'm working on that and may have more questions down the road.
Boycedrilling
In the Trades
Yes the Hitachi is fairly complex to program. So is the ABB. So is the Yaskawa, and so on. It's like learning a new language for each brand of Vfd. For a Yaskawa, there are anywhere from 5 to 15 parameters that I have to program into the drive. I have macro's to customize the ABB to do what I need. Both of these drives I preprogram from my laptop then download the parameters to the drive. Going from one drive to the other is like knowing how to program inrdSz either basic or cobol. ( Do computers even use cobol any more? That's the first computer language I learned in college. Of course that was in the days of punch cards!)
The simplicity of the Franklin Sub Drive has been one of its big selling points. You just had to set a couple of dip switches to set it for the correct horse power motor and pump end combination.
In VFD's for consumer applications I prefer the Pentait Intellidrive. It uses a Danfoss vfd that has been specially programmed for pump applications. It also programs in plain English commands. In commercial applications I use the Yaskawa drive. I have installed them up thru 250 horsepower applications.
What part of Nevada are you in? I'm in Salt Lake City tonight. I'm on my way to Las Vegas for the National Groundwater Association annual convention.
The simplicity of the Franklin Sub Drive has been one of its big selling points. You just had to set a couple of dip switches to set it for the correct horse power motor and pump end combination.
In VFD's for consumer applications I prefer the Pentait Intellidrive. It uses a Danfoss vfd that has been specially programmed for pump applications. It also programs in plain English commands. In commercial applications I use the Yaskawa drive. I have installed them up thru 250 horsepower applications.
What part of Nevada are you in? I'm in Salt Lake City tonight. I'm on my way to Las Vegas for the National Groundwater Association annual convention.
In defense of the installer, he is probably just installing what customers are asking for. People get on the Internet and read all the marketing hype by the pump manufacturers and decide the VFD is the greatest thing since sliced bread and will even save energy. Why wouldn't the installer want to sell something that is more expensive and doesn't last very long, especially if the customer is asking for it.
To the uninformed a VFD sounds like a good idea. And a VFD can save energy on an air conditioner compressor, a conveyer belt, or a positive displacement type pump like a piston pump. But because of how the Affinity Law causes centrifugal pumps to behave, a VFD actually increases energy consumption. If a VFD DID actually save energy it might be worth the added expense and short life, but it doesn't save energy with these type pumps. So you are just adding expense and reducing dependability when using a VFD.
Many people will try a VFD. Some even last 9 years or more. But most have a much shorter life and the high expense gets people back on the Internet looking for an alternative to VFDs. We also started with VFD's back in the 80's (they are not a new invention). But once we learned we could do the same thing with a simple CSV, which is much less expensive, and makes pump last a long time, we have never looked back. We have been replacing VFD's with CSV's since 1993, and there are more VFD's to replace everyday.
Give us your well depth, and how many GPM's you need and we can help figure a pump and system.
No I don't think anything still uses that computer language anymore. Computers (VFD's) are getting better every year. But there are just some things about VFD's that Mother Nature or the laws of physics just won't let them fix.
Have some fun in Vegas! I won't be there again this year. But I'll bet you will see a couple of companies doing there best to copy the CSV. And I know you will see dozens of different brands of VFD's, as those pump companies are really pushing what makes them the most money.
People should realize that manufacturers spend the most advertising products that make them the most money, which is just the opposite of what is best and least expensive for the homeowner.
I'm in Northern Nevada (near Carson City). I should emphasize that I still have normal water supply so I'm far from desperate but I want to have my ducks lined up for when the system fails. This will include suggestions to be made to a yet to be found installer. I'm coming up to speed on how to size my system and will post my numbers soon. I'm still hoping to better understand the size of the system I have since it's been more than adequate for my needs.
This was the oldest one I could find around the shop from 09, looks like Franklin discontinued your model really fast. Boycedrilling said he had one, maybe he can post it on here for you.
Attachments
Thanks for the post. Unfortunately, I can't find any reference to the 18-265. In another document, I found a reference to an "order number" of 93801875 but that isn't listed in what you posted.
That's the numbers I was looking for as well, the 18 in the numbers is for gpm and what boycedrilling found was a 1.5hp motor for a subdrive75, did Franklin make this model for a 2hp or 3hp motor is what you want to know right?
Exactly.
Similar threads
