Strange fault light on Franklin Subdrive 150 (Model 5870204150)

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Leeelson

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Leeelson. A couple of questions. Are you maybe getting a 2 flash that keeps repeating? That would be a low incoming voltage problem. Another possibility is rapid flash, which indicates an internal fault to the drive.
I don't think it's a repeat of 2 flashes. They sort of come in pairs over about 15 seconds (i.e. 5 pairs of flashes). Then, for about 30 seconds nothing happens, then the process repeats, 10 more flashes. I've checked the voltage.
Does the cooling fan work in the drive? That is one diagnostic test that isn't covered in the AIM manual. It can be tested by unplugging leads to the fan and jumpering a 9 volt battery to the fan. It could be a temperature related fault.
Cooling fan works (It was replaced awhile back)

One last possibility. How hard is your water? I have had the pressure sensor fail from mineral scale build up.
Somewhat hard. How can I check the sensor?
 

Reach4

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I'm pretty confused as to what the switch settings should be since it appears there is a range of possibilities for the pump.
http://franklinwater.com/media/138569/225417101-m1560-sd-manual-513-web.pdf page 11:
img_3.png
 

Reach4

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I see that.

It would be possible to tell what size 3-phase motor is down there by measuring a winding resistance, even though we don't know the wire length or gauge. We could compensate for the feed wire resistances, as long as we can presume they are equal. I understand that does not tell the pump end size.
But Boycedrilling in reply #42 pointed to a document. The pump curve there would be for the system I am thinking. So that could be used to infer the pump end. While a curve like that might be roughly a 1.5 HP 60 Hz pump, I am thinking based on their graphs that the pump end associated with that number could be a 3/4 pump end. Let's say that it really does not seem that it could be a 2 HP pump end, so with that controller, the 1.5 setting would be as close as it could be chosen.
img_4.png


Leeeson, what do you know about the well depth? Water about 100 ft down? If you want to determine what the motor size is, what we would need is that you put maybe 6 volts DC across two isolated motor wires, and measure the current drawn. At the same time, measure the voltage across the two terminals carrying the current, and measure the voltage from the un-connected wire and either of the two current-carrying wires. From those we can compute the resistance of a winding of the pump. Then compare that with values from table 22 of the AIM manual to figure out the motor size. For example, a 3 HP motor should have each winding 1.8 to 2.2 ohms.

I figure 6 volts would keep the current low enough, which I think would be low enough to not hurt anything. You could use I would say 1 to volts DC ... as long as you measure the voltage across the winding wires up top. I would not feel safe with higher voltage, but maybe I am too cautious.

You know that I am not a pro, but I think I can back up the math.
 
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Leeelson

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I see that.

It would be possible to tell what size 3-phase motor is down there by measuring a winding resistance, even though we don't know the wire length or gauge. We could compensate for the feed wire resistances, as long as we can presume they are equal. I understand that does not tell the pump end size.
But Boycedrilling in reply #42 pointed to a document. The pump curve there would be for the system I am thinking. So that could be used to infer the pump end. While a curve like that might be roughly a 1.5 HP 60 Hz pump, I am thinking based on their graphs that the pump end associated with that number could be a 3/4 pump end. Let's say that it really does not seem that it could be a 2 HP pump end, so with that controller, the 1.5 setting would be as close as it could be chosen. View attachment 32171

Leeeson, what do you know about the well depth? Water about 100 ft down? If you want to determine what the motor size is, what we would need is that you put maybe 6 volts DC across two isolated motor wires, and measure the current drawn. At the same time, measure the voltage across the two terminals carrying the current, and measure the voltage from the un-connected wire and either of the two current-carrying wires. From those we can compute the resistance of a winding of the pump. Then compare that with values from table 22 of the AIM manual to figure out the motor size. For example, a 3 HP motor should have each winding 1.8 to 2.2 ohms.

I figure 6 volts would keep the current low enough, which I think would be low enough to not hurt anything. You could use I would say 1 to volts DC ... as long as you measure the voltage across the winding wires up top. I would not feel safe with higher voltage, but maybe I am too cautious.

You know that I am not a pro, but I think I can back up the math.
From the well report: Well depth 500'. Static water level 128' below surface. Flow rate 35+ GPM over 1.5 hours. Drawdown unknown. Pump level unknown but I suspect about 220'.
 

Valveman

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With a wide open pipe putting out as much gpm as you can, an amp reading on the incoming side of the VFD would get you the horsepower pretty close. A 1.5 hp draws about 11 amps and a 3 hp pulls 17.
 

Leeelson

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With a wide open pipe putting out as much gpm as you can, an amp reading on the incoming side of the VFD would get you the horsepower pretty close. A 1.5 hp draws about 11 amps and a 3 hp pulls 17.
Seems like a good idea. Maybe now is the time to buy a clamp meter. No other way to measure that I know of.
 

Boycedrilling

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Leeelson, you have two separate problems. The first one is we really don't know what you have for a pump based on the invoice. Your invoice said you have a SDQP 18-265, but you have a SD150 controller. We have established that is not the correct controller for the pump listed on the invoice. So you either have the wrong controller for an 18-265 pump/motor OR you have a bigger pump and motor in the well than the invoice indicates.

You can buy a clamp on multimeter for $60 or less. Open an outside faucet all the way and measure the amperage on either line 1 or line 2. As Valveman said, a 1.5 hp motor will draw 11 amps and a 3 hp motor will draw 17 amps. This will give you the motor size.

Your second problem is your intermittent failures. It sounds like the fan has been replaced so it probably isn't temperature of the drive related. The Franklin pressure sensor is around $55, you could replace it, just because it's inexpensive, but that probably isn't your problem either. That leaves either the drive itself, or the wire in the well. I test the wire with a meggometer. You're probably not going to go to the expense of buying one of these. Though the battery operated ones are down in the $100 range now. I think my Biddle was close to a thousand dollars when I bought it. That leaves the drive itself. We've already discussed your options there.
 
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Leeelson

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Leeelson, you have two separate problems. The first one is we really don't know what you have for a pump based on the invoice. Your invoice said you have a SDQP 18-265, but you have a SD150 controller. We have established that is not the correct controller for the pump listed on the invoice. So you either have the wrong controller for an 18-265 pump/motor OR you have a bigger pump and motor in the well than the invoice indicates.

You can buy a clamp on multimeter for $60 or less. Open an outside faucet all the way and measure the amperage on either line 1 or line 2. As Valveman said, a 1.5 hp motor will draw 11 amps and a 3 hp motor will draw 17 amps. This will give you the motor size.

Your second problem is your intermittent failures. It sounds like the fan has been replaced so it probably isn't temperature of the drive related. The Franklin pressure sensor is around $55, you could replace it, just because it's inexpensive, but that probably isn't your problem either. That leaves either the drive itself, or the wire in the well. I test the wire with a meggometer. You're probably not going to go to the expense of buying one of these. Though the battery operated ones are down in the $100 range now. I think my Biddle was close to a thousand dollars when I bought it. That leaves the drive itself. We've already discussed your options there.
Yes. This all makes sense. My challenge now is to find a local installer who understands this and is willing to work with me. Hopefully I can nurse the Subdrive along for awhile longer.

Thanks to all for all your help.
 
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Leeelson

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With a wide open pipe putting out as much gpm as you can, an amp reading on the incoming side of the VFD would get you the horsepower pretty close. A 1.5 hp draws about 11 amps and a 3 hp pulls 17.
OK. Here's the data. 2 wide open yard hydrants with nothing attached (monstrous flow) produces 20 amps AC on the input side. (11 amps on output which I believe is the max the Subdrive 150 will do). Sounds like a 3 hp pump?

Talked to Bob Johnson. He reiterated that a 18-265 pump wouldn't run on the Subdrive 150, that 11 amps output is the max for a 150 and that it must be a 3 hp motor. At this point there's no reliable info on the pump size.

I'm trying to size the replacement system (installer is pretty clueless). Seems like the Grundfos 25S20-11 (25 gpm @ 219 TDH) is not likely to be too big at this point, but is it too small? Maybe I need the 25S30-15 (25 gpm @ 298 TDH). What's the downside of having a pump that's too big?
 
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Reach4

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This is from the Franklin AIM manual:
img_4.png
11 amps on the pump wires looks compatible with a 3 HP.

If there is any doubt, I would follow up with a resistance measurement by using a battery/power supply and meter. You probably have a friend with a 4-amp or more 5 volt DC power supply. I expect a 6 volt lead-acid battery would be safe too.

A single rechargeable cell from a flashlight could do it too, but since the voltage will drop with time, you would want to measure the voltage and current simultaneously by using two meters.

If there is concern about a winding being shorted or some other non-ground failure, you could you could measure the resistance on each leg. For that mater, you could measure the current on each leg with your clamp-on meter. It is hard to imagine a fault where the resistance or current stays the same for each leg.
 
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Leeelson

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3hp is 17 amps. 20 amps sounds like there maybe a problem with the pump or motor.
There could be a problem with the pump, but I suspect the faults lights would show (6 flashes) an over current situation. It doesn't. Maybe the Subdrive is drawing some current bringing the total to 17+3=20 amps.

Is there a downside to an over rated replacement pump with a CSV?
 
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