Pond ---> Cabin Water System?

[Ypro]

Hello!

I am purchasing a property that currently has no running water, but is only about 25' from a large pond so I wanted to design a system to use the pond water for household needs (on a very tight budget). See above for what I have come up with so far (hopefully small type is legible!)

Questions:
1) Anything glaringly wrong here? I researched all the products and they are well reviewed though not necessarily for exactly what I am doing.

2) Will a Wayne 25' foot shallow well pump located in the house be able to pump water 8' vertically and 30' horizontally from the pond? Would like to keep all components inside the house for warmer components and easier maintenance.

3) Will the pipe running from the pump to the pond freeze if not buried below frost line? i.e. will there be standing water in this pipe? or always in motion?

4) Filters: Should there be another filter besides the intake screen before the pump or will this interfere with pump getting enough water? Are 50/25/5 microns good numbers for the 3 Dupont inline filters? Will having three filters here greatly decrease water pressure?

5) Anything better than this system in a similar price range?

Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

It is kind of the same as when pumping from a cistern like the pic below. Yes the water in the suction pipe will freeze and no it is not always moving. Yes every filter will cause some pressure loss, and the dirtier the filter the more pressure it will lose, so you just start with higher pressure like 40/60. Yes a shallow well jet will lift 8' vertical and 30' horizontal. A foot valve is the only check valve you want, which will help keep a shallow well pump primed. A good screen on the foot valve is the only screen you want on the suction, as you can't afford much loss on the suction side. And the picture shows a CSV1A with a 4.5 gallon size tank, which will hold a constant 50 PSI pressure instead of continually cycling between 40 and 60. Pressure varying from 40 to 60 with just a pressure tank can make your tankless water heater go on and off while showering.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Just some thoughts:

4) Filters: Should there be another filter besides the intake screen before the pump or will this interfere with pump getting enough water? Are 50/25/5 microns good numbers for the 3 Dupont inline filters? Will having three filters here greatly decrease water pressure?

I don't know your proposed filters. I like the Pentek Big Blue 20x4.5 housings. The bigger the filter, the lower the backpressure, or for similar max backpressure, the longer the cartridge lasts. Do not use cellulose filters.


50/25/5 microns seems closely spaced. You are not really going to know what you are dealing with until you start using the system. So filter housings that can accept a variety of cartridges is good. Pressure gauges between stages can tell you when the various elements are getting clogged.

Keep spare O-rings for your filter housings. Consider having bypasses for the filters in case of a failure. Use a light coat of silicone grease on the O-rings. I like Molykote 111.

How will you deal with freezing? Will you trench down below the frost line? What pipe will you use for suction? Polyethylene might survive freezing. PVC probably would not. There are systems that run an electric heater element through the pipe. Probably not cheap. I have no relevant experience.

A submersible pump would give you a lot more water volume/pressure than a jet pump.

 

[Ypro]

And the picture shows a CSV1A with a 4.5 gallon size tank, which will hold a constant 50 PSI pressure instead of continually cycling between 40 and 60. Pressure varying from 40 to 60 with just a pressure tank can make your tankless water heater go on and off while showering.
View attachment 39255[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your response and suggestions!

I had read one of your (Valveman) posts elsewhere describing the benefits of CSV valves. Constant steady water pressure is definitely appealing. But as someone with very little plumbing experience, keeping the system to a minimum also seems like a good idea. Is a CSV something that could be added into the component chain later on if I was having pressure issues? does it go between the pump and pressure tank?

And thanks Reach4 as well, I looked into the Pentek filter housings and in one of the reviews found this setup pic, which I think I will copy pretty exactly:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71kQa+OT9vL.jpg

For the intake pipe, was planning on using 1 1/4" HDPE above ground at first and then burying once system is running smooth.

Thanks again!

 

[Craigpump]

How are you going to sanitize the water to kill the bacteria?

 

[Valveman]

Yes the CSV is just a simple valve that needs to be installed prior to the pressure tank/pressure switch and before any water outlets. And yes you can add a CSV later. But if you don't add a CSV at the beginning, you will need a much larger pressure tank. You can add the CSV to the system later when you realize the problems with the pressure always swinging 20 PSI up and down, like not keeping the tankless water heater on. But then you will have a CSV with a large tank, and you will see the pressure dropping from 60 to 40 for several minutes before the pump starts and you start seeing the strong constant pressure from the CSV. With a smaller tank and a CSV there is no waiting for constant pressure to get there.

 

[Ypro]

Hey, thanks for the response!

I found this product on amazon- an all in one kit with CSV and pressure tank- $350 which is about what I would be spending just on a larger pressure tank. Seems a good way to keep everything simple and pressurized and take up minimal space. Should this work with a Wayne 90' shallow well jet pump?

Re: santization, was going to use a Big Berkey to filter the drinking water.

 

[Valveman]

What horsepower and or model number is that Wayne pump? And also how deep to water?

 

[Ypro]

What horsepower and or model number is that Wayne pump? And also how deep to water?

Wayne CWS 50 1/2 HP 90' Well Jet Pump - see link

about 8' vertical, 40' horizontal to the water. I'll call Wayne support to ask this too, but they make a 25' model and a 90' model, do you know which would be better for that distance? does horizontal count the same as vertical?

Thanks

 

[Smooky]

I would put in a well so you can have a safe water supply. If the water only had coliform you could use a chlorinator or a UV light to kill the bacteria as Craigpump is asking about. But in a pond there is likely to be poop in the water such as from ducks, geese, fish, frogs, raccoons and other creatures.
I wouldn't want to drink it even if it is chlorinated. If the sanitizing system fails you are drinking water that is highly likely to make you sick.

 

[Craigpump]

Damn right Smooky.

Imagine the smell of that water coming through a shower head?

 

[Valveman]

I don't think it is much different than collecting rain water off the roof with all that dirt and bird crap. Would need a really good filter system before I would drink it.

 

[Ypro]

Agreed that a well would be ideal, but was quoted 7-8k to put one in which I don't have right now.

I priced out the components for this system and should come in under $1500, most of which, pressure tank, heater etc would still be needed even if I had a well. So it seems like its worth a shot.

All of NYC's water passes through reservoirs which are just large ponds, with many more and larger animals pooping in them than mine. Filtering it is the key. I'm hoping 2 inline sediment filters and one carbon filter will be enough for household water. And a Big Berkey for the drinking water. But if that doesn't do it, I'll keep playing around with the system. Worse comes to worse and I have to put in a well, I'll still be able to use the filtration setup do make that water extra pure.

 

[Craigpump]

Yeah, but NYC has the unlimited resources required to make that water safe to drink.....

 

[PumpMd]

I have drank water from multiple lakes(where are city water comes from),ponds,rivers around here, and the Mississippi River during hurricane Katrina from my military days. Have your water quality tested and post your test results for Dittohead on the water softener forum here and he will make your water quality safe to drink. (It might be cheaper in the long run to drill a well for better water quality)

Thank you water treatment guys for making the water quality safe to take showers as well. Somebody did mess up in the beginning by dropping off a "non potable" water buffalo to are site. I told my motor sgt to have it removed because people were brushing their teeth in it and probably drinking it.

Their water treatment setup was awesome. I had my sgt stop one day so I could see the whole process these guys do to make our water quality safe for us.

 

[ditttohead]

A 3 stage Big Blue will not be adequate for a ground water supply that has a high probability of contamination. When using a ground water source that is subject to considerable biological contamination redundant sanitizing, preferably certified is highly recommended.

I would not trust a "Berkley" type of filter for this application for your drinking water.

When it comes to water treatment, a great deal of information that is available online is totally "Fake News". I should know, I ghost write fake articles to see how long it takes companies to cut and paste the writings to their own websites. I never do fake news that could create a health risk but some of my older writings were so far out there, written almost as a joke to mock some of the claims companies make, these fake articles took less than a week to be added to these companies websites as proof. LOL!

At minimum you need to do a comprehensive water test. Since you are your own municipality you will need to spend some money. NTLLABS or KAR Labs are excellent companies to get water testing done with. After a proper test is done, a proper system can be designed and implemented.

A typical ground water system can include a simple to clean suction screen. A simple reverse purge can be designed into it easily.
A self cleaning filter like the Hydra to catch junk down to 90 micron

Chlorination with a properly sized baffled contact tank.

Then some filtration that meets the needs of your water testing which could include a simple backwashing sediment filter, maybe a carbon tank to remove excess chlorine and organic chemicals if present (common in many lakes/ponds), or a UF System, etc..
Lastly the water should be treated with a properly sized UV light that is no less than Class B, preferably Class A.
For drinking water from a pond... I wouldn't want to make a suggestion without a proper water test.