Off grid solutions for year round use in cold climate

[offgrid_maine]

Hey everyone! First time using this forum so super thankful for any advice.



I am looking for recommendations and affirmation to a plan I have for getting water to my offgrid cabin (on posts) in Litchfield Maine. My property has a spring fed pond (beaver pond about 5 acres) on it and the spring comes from my property as well right behind the cabin. The spring is a seep rather than a stream flowing out of a hillside. I’m entertaining different ideas on how to best provide myself with the cleanest possible water consistently in the most cost effective way all while minimizing electrical load best I can so as to power it all with my solar system.



Here is my current thought process. While I could use the pond water and just use a sub pump in the pond this water would neither be the cleanest nor the easiest to tap into as the pond is 30 vertical feet below the cabin and about 300’ away meaning the trench that would need to be dug (I presume 4 feet deep to be below frost line) would be very long and difficult. Benefit to this system obviously being that the water is already there and collected so it’s plug and play once the trench is dug.



But my thought is that if I can find a way to collect the water from the seep right at my cabin that I would then have a very short trench to dig. I have tried hard to look up various ways to collect from a seep and it seems there are a few possibilities and I’m unsure which is best. One is to dig a trench across the area which has a slight sloping gradient but uphill of where the water is above ground parts of the year And using various sizes of gravel and plastic to deter surface water intrusion and an impermeable layer in the trench to collect and direct the water into a collection pipe. I suppose I would then need to have some sort of cistern downhill of this collection point to direct that flow into, which would need to be dug into the ground atleast 4’. And from there pump the water from the cistern (ideally sub pump so as to not be concerned with pump freezing) into a pressure tank in the cabin.



The other option I was considering would be to do a dug shallow well. When I was trying to locate the deep I dug a decent sized hole and it filled very rapidly with water. Probably 3 feet deep hole and filled to within a foot of the top leaning ground water is very high. Granted this was done in April meaning it could be lower in other seasons but I have seen moving water at the area where the water comes to the surface also in the winter and fall. So thought was that because of the high water table shouldn’t I be able to just dig a ditch as I had before but deeper (6’ or so) line it with a plastic well liner that is perforated at the lower sections and sub pump directly from there to the house? This seems it would be the simplest system but I haven’t found much on the use of a dug well within a seep area.



I apologize for this being long winded.



Other notes are I do not need this water to be potable. Just want to use it for washing etc. but if it happened to be clean enough that would be great!



Lastly, I will not heat the cabin 365 and ideally would like to use it and possibly rent it in all seasons meaning an oversimplified winterizing process would be great for when I or a tenant leaves. My current thought is this:



Use a yard hydrant at the top of the pipe coming from the sub pump into the house (so that the water drains back down under frost line simply by shutting hydrant). Use heat tape on hydrant pipe from 4’ underground into the house to ensure it stays liquid when not flowing but I do think I could just shut the hydrant at night when water is not needed yes? From there connect hydrant to pressure tank in the cabin and ensure all faucet inlet piping is sloped back towards that pressure tank so no water can trap in pipes. In order to drain back the entire system my thought would be to use a solenoid valve (wired along with the pressure switch) on the drain pipe of the pressure tank (to drain back all pipes in house and all water in tank when I turn off the power to the pressure switch. In this way I could drain the whole house by hitting one switch controlling power to the pressure tank and by shutting one hydrant (2step process for winterization sounds simple to me… well 5 step if you include opening all faucet outlets). Is this system realistic? Any advice or edits?



Okay that’s enough for now. If I need to post this in multiple smaller threads let me know. But I think understanding the whole scope is important as each element has factors that play into the others.



Thank you so much,



Tyler

 

[offgrid_maine]

Another hesitation about taking water from the pond is obviously beaver fever… gonna try to avoid that

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Fitter30]

Need to look at how much water per person is used might surprise you. Ground water needs to get tested for biological. Look on you tube for ideas.

 

[offgrid_maine]

Need to look at how much water per person is used might surprise you. Ground water needs to get tested for biological.

Thank you for your reply!

Yep I myself and girlfriend are very conservative (we’ve been using carried in water the last two years for that matter), but I’d like the system to hold up for standard usage of a standard household. 70 gallons per person per day? It’s a small cabin so max 3 people I’d say. So 210 gallons. But that’s over the entirety of the day. From what I can tell the flow rate of this spring is substantial there is a stream coming off the surface water that collects after the seep so I figure the tank would fill back up quite fast.

At the moment I think I’m leaning towards a solution of just digging down to place a couple of 55 gal barrels stacked and attached with one of them perforated to allow the water to come in. Is this a reasonable system. I figured that if I have access to say 70 gallons if I bury two barrels (accounting for room so the well pump doesn’t run dry and air space on the top to allow for access into the well) it could be enough with the flow rate but of course I have to test this and see how it works.

I will of course test the water before use. But I’d like to plan out the solution anyways and so am looking for specific advice on the systems I proposed, drain backs, how a CSV could be helpful in the system especially with the desire for a smaller tank, electricity requirements, etc.

 

[offgrid_maine]

Need to look at how much water per person is used might surprise you. Ground water needs to get tested for biological. Look on you tube for ideas.

I have gone through a ton of YouTube videos on different well systems etc. that is how I came to my final thoughts but most systems I find are not for my climate or aren’t considering an oversimplified drainback system etc etc. lots of nuance which is why I want an opinion from an expert if I’m on the right path or not

 

[offgrid_maine]

Hey everyone! First time using this forum so super thankful for any advice.



I am looking for recommendations and affirmation to a plan I have for getting water to my offgrid cabin (on posts) in Litchfield Maine. My property has a spring fed pond (beaver pond about 5 acres) on it and the spring comes from my property as well right behind the cabin. The spring is a seep rather than a stream flowing out of a hillside. I’m entertaining different ideas on how to best provide myself with the cleanest possible water consistently in the most cost effective way all while minimizing electrical load best I can so as to power it all with my solar system.



Here is my current thought process. While I could use the pond water and just use a sub pump in the pond this water would neither be the cleanest nor the easiest to tap into as the pond is 30 vertical feet below the cabin and about 300’ away meaning the trench that would need to be dug (I presume 4 feet deep to be below frost line) would be very long and difficult. Benefit to this system obviously being that the water is already there and collected so it’s plug and play once the trench is dug.



But my thought is that if I can find a way to collect the water from the seep right at my cabin that I would then have a very short trench to dig. I have tried hard to look up various ways to collect from a seep and it seems there are a few possibilities and I’m unsure which is best. One is to dig a trench across the area which has a slight sloping gradient but uphill of where the water is above ground parts of the year And using various sizes of gravel and plastic to deter surface water intrusion and an impermeable layer in the trench to collect and direct the water into a collection pipe. I suppose I would then need to have some sort of cistern downhill of this collection point to direct that flow into, which would need to be dug into the ground atleast 4’. And from there pump the water from the cistern (ideally sub pump so as to not be concerned with pump freezing) into a pressure tank in the cabin.



The other option I was considering would be to do a dug shallow well. When I was trying to locate the deep I dug a decent sized hole and it filled very rapidly with water. Probably 3 feet deep hole and filled to within a foot of the top leaning ground water is very high. Granted this was done in April meaning it could be lower in other seasons but I have seen moving water at the area where the water comes to the surface also in the winter and fall. So thought was that because of the high water table shouldn’t I be able to just dig a ditch as I had before but deeper (6’ or so) line it with a plastic well liner that is perforated at the lower sections and sub pump directly from there to the house? This seems it would be the simplest system but I haven’t found much on the use of a dug well within a seep area.



I apologize for this being long winded.



Other notes are I do not need this water to be potable. Just want to use it for washing etc. but if it happened to be clean enough that would be great!



Lastly, I will not heat the cabin 365 and ideally would like to use it and possibly rent it in all seasons meaning an oversimplified winterizing process would be great for when I or a tenant leaves. My current thought is this:



Use a yard hydrant at the top of the pipe coming from the sub pump into the house (so that the water drains back down under frost line simply by shutting hydrant). Use heat tape on hydrant pipe from 4’ underground into the house to ensure it stays liquid when not flowing but I do think I could just shut the hydrant at night when water is not needed yes? From there connect hydrant to pressure tank in the cabin and ensure all faucet inlet piping is sloped back towards that pressure tank so no water can trap in pipes. In order to drain back the entire system my thought would be to use a solenoid valve (wired along with the pressure switch) on the drain pipe of the pressure tank (to drain back all pipes in house and all water in tank when I turn off the power to the pressure switch. In this way I could drain the whole house by hitting one switch controlling power to the pressure tank and by shutting one hydrant (2step process for winterization sounds simple to me… well 5 step if you include opening all faucet outlets). Is this system realistic? Any advice or edits?



Okay that’s enough for now. If I need to post this in multiple smaller threads let me know. But I think understanding the whole scope is important as each element has factors that play into the others.



Thank you so much,



Tyler

@Valveman any advice on what collection system/pump for the seep may be most effective for my situation?

 

[Chucky_ott]

Have you considered using a sand point?

 

[offgrid_maine]

Have you considered using a sand point?

Briefly but my understanding is that a seep exists closer to the surface and hence a collection method such as dug well or trenches collecting to a main point are better for this? I could be wrong and honestly would love to be but I also know that I need the pump to be freeze proof and doing that with a standpoint well may be tricky no?

 

[Chucky_ott]

What is the topology like? Can you install a perforated pipe or a sand point horizontally below the frost line and have the water drain via gravity to a cistern that stays above freezing?

 

[offgrid_maine]

What is the topology like? Can you install a perforated pipe or a sand point horizontally below the frost line and have the water drain via gravity to a cistern that stays above freezing?

Unfortunately the seep is on a very gradual slope. If it were more hillside something like that would totally work. Frontline is 4’ where I live but I’ve seen water on the surface frozen here in the winter with flow just beneath so I think it stays liquid above frost line most of the time due to the flow.

This is the part that is so different from so many of the videos I see where others have a larger gradient to play with.

Out of curiosity what to you is the benefit of doing that over doing a dug well with say a 24” perforated corrugated pipe installed as a liner?

 

[Chucky_ott]

Out of curiosity what to you is the benefit of doing that over doing a dug well with say a 24” perforated corrugated pipe installed as a liner?

None really, other than digging a trench is easier than digging a hole. I also wasn't sure on your topology and the possibility of using gravity to your advantage.

I'm not a pro and the only experience I have is with my sand point at the cottage. We used to draw the water directly from the lake but I installed the sand point a few years ago to have "filtered", but not potable, lake water.

 

[offgrid_maine]

None really, other than digging a trench is easier than digging a hole. I also wasn't sure on your topology and the possibility of using gravity to your advantage.

I'm not a pro and the only experience I have is with my sand point at the cottage. We used to draw the water directly from the lake but I installed the sand point a few years ago to have "filtered", but not potable, lake water.

Yeah that makes sense, I’ll look into the sand point more. maybe check if the soil is Sandy below with a dig test. But yeah I think the use of gravity is possible but nearly negligible because of the slope being as slight as it is. Would be hard to do it and stay well below frost depth

 

[Chucky_ott]

The difficulty will be in digging a 4ft deep trench or hole below the water table and not have it cave in on you.

 

[Chucky_ott]

One is to dig a trench across the area which has a slight sloping gradient but uphill of where the water is above ground parts of the year And using various sizes of gravel and plastic to deter surface water intrusion and an impermeable layer in the trench to collect and direct the water into a collection pipe. I suppose I would then need to have some sort of cistern downhill of this collection point to direct that flow into, which would need to be dug into the ground atleast 4’. And from there pump the water from the cistern (ideally sub pump so as to not be concerned with pump freezing) into a pressure tank in the cabin.

Actually, this is kind of what I was suggesting, but instead of a trench filled with gravel to direct the water to a cistern, I am saying use a horizontal sandpoint or perforated pipe at the seep and a regular pipe to your cistern. If the seep flows all year, an overflow at the cistern would allow the water to flow into the cistern continuously. The slope from the sandpoint really doesnt have to be that much. I'd assume a slope similar to a drainage system (1/4":12") would be sufficient. And if there is a continuous flow in the pipe and cistern, it may not freeze even if not below the frost line.

 

[offgrid_maine]

Actually, this is kind of what I was suggesting, but instead of a trench filled with gravel to direct the water to a cistern, I am saying use a horizontal sandpoint or perforated pipe at the seep and a regular pipe to your cistern. If the seep flows all year, an overflow at the cistern would allow the water to flow into the cistern continuously. The slope from the sandpoint really doesnt have to be that much. I'd assume a slope similar to a drainage system (1/4":12") would be sufficient. And if there is a continuous flow in the pipe and cistern, it may not freeze even if not below the frost line.

Ah that may be true with regards to not needing a ton of slope and the point about flow making it less necessary for the frost line is hopeful. Can always test it this winter and edit it for next year if it freezes.

The main issues I see with this are 2 things. One, a sand point only hits a specific point across an area that is probably 20’ wide (unsure that will produce much flow?). This I think is why usually people dig a horizontal trench and place perforated pipe across the trench to collect the water and then those pipes come together into a main pipe going downhill and into a cistern. Two, if I’m already digging the hole downhill to put the cistern in I will inevitably be digging where the water starts to get higher and can sometimes be above ground during wet seasons. If I’m digging that hole for the cistern why wouldn’t I just cut out the perforated pipe ordeal and just put a perforated well liner in the hole for the cistern and pump directly out of that?

Also could be hard digging where the water table is so high?

 

[offgrid_maine]

The difficulty will be in digging a 4ft deep trench or hole below the water table and not have it cave in on you.

I dug a hole nearly 3’ deep before and with a trash pump was able to keep most of the water out while I dug.

 

[Chucky_ott]

This I think is why usually people dig a horizontal trench and place perforated pipe across the trench to collect the water and then those pipes come together into a main pipe going downhill and into a cistern.

That would work of course. Sort of like your septic leach field in reverse. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience to say whether that would be more advantageous than a single pipe. I guess it would largely depend on the soil permeability and how deep the pipe sits below the water table. Nature abhors a vacuum. So whatever water flows into the pipe will be replaced by the surrounding water. From how far and how quickly would depend on those two factors above.

 

[offgrid_maine]

That would work of course. Sort of like your septic leach field in reverse. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience to say whether that would be more advantageous than a single pipe. I guess it would largely depend on the soil permeability and how deep the pipe sits below the water table. Nature abhors a vacuum. So whatever water flows into the pipe will be replaced by the surrounding water. From how far and how quickly would depend on those two factors above

Good food for thought. Another concept to consider though would be that it’s possible/ almost certain that the water table changes a bit from season to season so another advantage to a vertically dug well is that it’s more likely to be within the water table range for all seasons whereas if the sandpoint could be perfect for the season it’s set in but too close to the surface for the driest spell.

I suppose October (when I’ll be testing this) is usually on the drier side as compared to spring so it’s a better time to get a rough idea of where about I should be for the low point of the water table.

 

[offgrid_maine]

That would work of course. Sort of like your septic leach field in reverse. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience to say whether that would be more advantageous than a single pipe. I guess it would largely depend on the soil permeability and how deep the pipe sits below the water table. Nature abhors a vacuum. So whatever water flows into the pipe will be replaced by the surrounding water. From how far and how quickly would depend on those two factors above.

Logistically how would I drive a sandpoint horizontally anyway? I suppose I would dig down deep enough to stand in the hole while sledging the sand point at a slight upward angle? Or better to just dig a trench to lay the sandpoint into and then burry it (maybe lay some rigid foam insulation ontop of the pipe 16” overhanging either side to help in insulating as well?)

 

[Chucky_ott]

Or better to just dig a trench to lay the sandpoint into and then burry it

Yes, that was what I was thinking. I only suggested a sandpoint because it is a manufactured perforated pipe with a screen. But a perforated PVC pipe with some filtering material would likely work too.