New Pressure Tank Long Jet Pump Runtimes

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AGageM

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Hi,

We just installed a new pressure tank (44 gallon) as well as adjusted the pressure switch on 1/2 hp jet pump to ~30/50 from ~20/40. I took out air from pressure tank down to around 29-30 psi. We are getting much better times between cycles, however, whenever the pump cuts on, it takes ~5 mins to fill pressure tank. If we are using any water, the pump doesn't stop until the water is turned off. Now we've had it running for over 10 minutes twice now and I can smell a burning smell. The pump is luke warm to the touch, not hot at all. I feel there's something wrong buy am unable to diagnose as I'm not a plumber and can't find anything online about a pump running for that long before shutting off. Can anyone put me In the right direction of what may be going wrong, or should I call a plumber?

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Reach4

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I would check the curves on the pump to see how this compares with expectations. What is the make and model for the pump?

Things are probably OK as is, but you want some margin. To get that margin I would drop the pressure switch to maybe 28/48. That would be about 0.7 turns CCW on the nut on the big spring.

I would drop the air precharge to 24.
 

Valveman

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Like Reach says, check the max pressure of the pump. If pump max pressure is 50-55, it will have a hard time or may never get to 50. You may have to turn it back down to 20/40. The motor end should be warm or even hot, but the pump end should be nice and cool like the water. If the water end is getting hot, the pump is not moving enough water to stay cool.

You could also have a small suction leak, which will make the pump struggle to get to shut off pressure.
 

AGageM

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I would check the curves on the pump to see how this compares with expectations. What is the make and model for the pump?

Things are probably OK as is, but you want some margin. To get that margin I would drop the pressure switch to maybe 28/48. That would be about 0.7 turns CCW on the nut on the big spring.

I would drop the air precharge to 24.

I did as you said, just primed the pump and it was running for 6 min 52 seconds to fill tank and lines. Not sure if it should take that long to do so, I hit 40 psi on the gauge after a minute-minute and a half but took the rest of the 7 minutes to go from 40 to 48. I dropped the air to 26, cut on is 28. Just from what I have read to have tank at 2 psi lower than cut off. Still waiting for it to turn back on and see run time, but the problem seems to be after we hit 40 psi on the gauge, after that it seems to struggle. I may have to go back down to 20/40 as the comment underneath suggests. Having 3 levels, pump in basement and water fixtures on the next two levels, it would be nice to have a higher pressure but if we have to drop it back down, that's what we have to do, or buy a bigger pump.

The pump is a mastercraft, model is 561471.
Think it's got 7.5 gpm flow.
 

AGageM

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Like Reach says, check the max pressure of the pump. If pump max pressure is 50-55, it will have a hard time or may never get to 50. You may have to turn it back down to 20/40. The motor end should be warm or even hot, but the pump end should be nice and cool like the water. If the water end is getting hot, the pump is not moving enough water to stay cool.

You could also have a small suction leak, which will make the pump struggle to get to shut off pressure.

Max pressure on pump is 75 but it is kinda old. The motor end is just luke warm, pump end is still cool to the touch, no warmth whatsoever. We bought new tank because the old bladder had a hole and we were short cycling constantly. Might have to go back to the old 20/40. Like I mentioned in previous comment, after 40 the pump seems to struggle to get up to 48.
 

Reach4

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Just from what I have read to have tank at 2 psi lower than cut off.
That is for submersible pumps. Jet pumps take a little longer to get going. If your precharge is a little high, no big deal. It could result in a slight stutter in the water pressure when the switch clicks on. Nothing traumatic, unless you have a pressure switch withe a low-pressure cutoff. Most people don't.

No need to go from 30/50 psi to 20/40. You can adjust to anywhere in between, with 3.5 turns for the nut on the big spring typically dropping both the cut in and cut out by 10 psi. So maybe turn your nut 1 turn CCW.

But maybe your pump is getting weak. Model number... pump curves...

It is possible that you could regain function with the old pump by cleaning the jet. Your jet is not clogged-- if it were, you would only get about 20 psi. But it may be partially clogged. See post #29 and others on https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pressure-drops-quick.67304/page-2
 
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AGageM

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That is for submersible pumps. Jet pumps take a little longer to get going. If your precharge is a little high, no big deal. It could result in a slight stutter in the water pressure when the switch clicks on. Nothing traumatic, unless you have a pressure switch withe a low-pressure cutoff. Most people don't.

No need to go from 30/50 psi to 20/40. You can adjust to anywhere in between, with 3.5 turns for the nut on the big spring typically dropping both the cut in and cut out by 10 psi. So maybe turn your nut 1 turn CCW.

But maybe your pump is getting weak. Model number... pump curves...

It is possible that you could regain function with the old pump by cleaning the jet. Your jet is not clogged-- if it were, you would only get about 20 psi. But it may be partially clogged.

I apologize, I'm not smart in this subject, but I am not sure what pump curves are, I tried reading about it last night but I wasn't sure what I was reading. I am uploading a picture of the pump info I hope it posts. Thanks so much for the help, kinda getting anxious and hoping the pump doesn't burn out and trying to stop people from showering until we figure it out so the pump doesn't run constantly while in the shower and risk possible burn out or something.
20211209_111656.jpg
 

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I think you will find a suction leak or two. Use foamy shaving cream on all connection prior to the pump and see where a hole sucks in when it gets up close to that 48 PSI.
 

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I apologize, I'm not smart in this subject, but I am not sure what pump curves are, I tried reading about it last night but I wasn't sure what I was reading. I am uploading a picture of the pump info I hope it posts. Thanks so much for the help, kinda getting anxious and hoping the pump doesn't burn out and trying to stop people from showering until we figure it out so the pump doesn't run constantly while in the shower and risk possible burn out or something.View attachment 79251

That is just the motor tag. We need the pump end model number as well. As long as a shower is on and the pump is running it won't hurt anything. It is when no faucets are open and the pump fails to shut off that gets things hot. That has probably already happened, which made the leaks on the plastic pipe on the suction side even worse.
 

AGageM

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That is just the motor tag. We need the pump end model number as well. As long as a shower is on and the pump is running it won't hurt anything. It is when no faucets are open and the pump fails to shut off that gets things hot. That has probably already happened, which made the leaks on the plastic pipe on the suction side even worse.

There are a few small leaks between the cistern and pump, one at the shut off and one at an elbow. Is that our problem right there? We tried to fix the leaks but once we got a load of water in and more pressure on the lines, they have a slight drip again. The pump doesn't come on when there is no water running, just during use or after a toilet flush or whatever. It will run for around 5 minutes before shutting off. It runs once every couple hours at the moment, but I feel it's running too long, and once it turns on, if there is water running, that is where I'm having a problem of it not shutting off, you say it should be fine for it to run the whole time someone is in shower, but that is when I'm smelling a burning smell, around 8-10 minutes of run time.
 

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That burning smell is just from the motor running hot, which they do. They make them small so they run hot and don't last too long. But that is normal. You might have a loose connection or something if the smell is really bad. Still think the leaks in the suction line are the problem. The higher the pressure gets the less water the pump is drawing, and the easier it is for a little air to take over in the pump.
 

AGageM

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That burning smell is just from the motor running hot, which they do. They make them small so they run hot and don't last too long. But that is normal. You might have a loose connection or something if the smell is really bad. Still think the leaks in the suction line are the problem. The higher the pressure gets the less water the pump is drawing, and the easier it is for a little air to take over in the pump.
We have a backup line from the cistern so I'm going to change the line and see what happens.
 

AGageM

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That burning smell is just from the motor running hot, which they do. They make them small so they run hot and don't last too long. But that is normal. You might have a loose connection or something if the smell is really bad. Still think the leaks in the suction line are the problem. The higher the pressure gets the less water the pump is drawing, and the easier it is for a little air to take over in the pump.
So the backup line has little pressure compared, so I'm back to using the first line with the leaks. Because one leak is at the shut off valve on the cistern side it's been difficult to fix. Might need more tape on the threads. Is there anything I can buy to fix this leak? Like a glue or putty? I will pick it up right away, thanks.
 

Reach4

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So the backup line has little pressure compared, so I'm back to using the first line with the leaks. Because one leak is at the shut off valve on the cistern side it's been difficult to fix.
You normally would not have a valve on the cistern side.

So you know where the leaks are? These leaks are at are threaded joints?

And the backup line is another pipe with a foot valve that goes into the cistern?
 

AGageM

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This is what we are working with, leak is I believe on threaded side but it could be at the hose barb attached to it, it's such a small leak it's hard to tell. Both l
20211209_143156.jpg
20211209_143142.jpg
ines go to cistern
 

Reach4

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This is what we are working with, leak is I believe on threaded side but it could be at the hose barb attached to it, it's such a small leak it's hard to tell.
Shaving foam on the joints while the pump is running will disclose a leak. The foam gets sucked in.
9551274835998.jpg


Another way is to sop the area with a very wet sponge/cloth. If water is being sucked in, the sound from the pump will probably change.
 

AGageM

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Shaving foam on the joints while the pump is running will disclose a leak. The foam gets sucked in.

Another way is to sop the area with a very wet sponge/cloth. If water is being sucked in, the sound from the pump will probably change.
OK and if this is the case, can I seal the leak with something like a flex paste? Or would I have to wait til water level is down and take the shut off right out of the line, retape and tighten together with pipe wrench? The problem happened while putting it in, the guy who did it forgot to tighten threaded joints with a wrench and just hand tightened. Now we've been stuck with it like this
 
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