Kitchen Sink Plumbing Config...Good, Bad, and/or Ugly?

[wwhitney]

IPC allows sidewall vent terminals, 903.6. They still have to comply with all the clearance requirements in 903.5. (Link is to the Colorado code, as up.codes says Colorado has not adopted any amendments to the IPC)

https://up.codes/viewer/colorado/ipc-2018/chapter/9/vents#903.6

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

IPC allows sidewall vent terminals, 903.6.

There ya go. Learn something every day.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[TXCajun]

Your original picture was really bad.

Your high vent is not what I would consider functionally bad, but I think it would not be allowed in most of the country. That said, if other houses near you have no roof penetration, it seems likely that there is a local amendment. I am not shocked at that. I am not a plumber. Note that usually roof vents are on the non-street side of the roof to hide them a bit.

There are usually roof penetrations to vent attics too. There can be ridge vents which don't look like penetrations. They typically don't vent as well. There also is a very nice system where attics are not vented, and the insulation at the roof envelops the attic. https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...ba_innov_unventedconditionedattics_011713.pdf

Agreed about that config under my kitchen sink. Totally unfamiliar to me.

I did some checking on Texas code regarding venting. It seems what my plumbers did is meeting code, but some code lingo-jingo is not in my vocabulary and I'll have to confirm that with my plumbers. I'll try not to panic and feel suckered until then.

 

[Terry]

If they have an atmospheric vent somewhere for the home then the AAV's will work.
I still don't get why there is no p-trap on the sink. And if there is a trap hidden under the floor, the AAV is in the wrong place for it.

And best of all, I can't see it from where I live.

 

[TXCajun]

IPC allows sidewall vent terminals, 903.6. They still have to comply with all the clearance requirements in 903.5. (Link is to the Colorado code, as up.codes says Colorado has not adopted any amendments to the IPC)

https://up.codes/viewer/colorado/ipc-2018/chapter/9/vents#903.6

Cheers, Wayne

That is interesting, Wayne. It led me to do some searching for Texas code and it appears what my plumbers did is code compliant. I still want them to confirm that, however. Thank you for posting that as I was feeling rather depressed. I suppose there's hope. Still have to get the under sink plumbing config straightened out.

For me, this thread has been very educational. I enjoy learning! Thank you and everyone else for throwing in here to help me acquire some understanding. Much appreciated.

 

[TXCajun]

If they have an atmospheric vent somewhere for the home then the AAV's will work.
I still don't get why there is no p-trap on the sink. And if there is a trap hidden under the floor, the AAV is in the wrong place for it.

And best of all, I can't see it from where I live.

Agreed! I've only ever seen a p-trap in my sink cabinets. And, yep, I know you are horrified.

 

[Jeff H Young]

If they have an atmospheric vent somewhere for the home then the AAV's will work.
I still don't get why there is no p-trap on the sink. And if there is a trap hidden under the floor, the AAV is in the wrong place for it.

And best of all, I can't see it from where I live.

Terry I've heard of some places I think AZ or Tx that allow an owner to opt out of inspection and I don't think this is for COVID . I can agree partly with it . I believe a king should have his say in his castle so to speak/, and the buyer beware . but some of the stuff we see just isn't right to pass on to some poor soul, The health and safety of others including children . Everyone that builds or remodels say its just for them right up to the day they cash out and flip.
An AAV doesn't equal a vent just as a check valve doesn't equal a free flowing pipe. They are a cheap easy substitute that can save gobs of time and money and mostly trouble free . but as good or equal or better than a vent .
I just don't quite understand what's going on it must be out in sticks exempt from code or something, owner is concerned I don't want to rag on builder too much

 

[TXCajun]

Jeff,

I've never heard of Texans being able to opt out of inspections of any sort. I've never been allowed to do that with any reno/resto projects and certainly not with this, my first new build. Of course, I'm not all of Texas, but I have lived in different regions, non of which allowed opting out. Also, I am not building out in the sticks and, again, am not exempt from code compliance.

Yes, I am concerned because the config is unfamiliar. I simply came here asking for input as to what those that know think so that I could be a bit educated enough to speak somewhat intelligently with my plumber who is licensed, been in operation for many years, well established, and used by many...again, not that that necessarily means he's good.

And, I have never and would never cheap out or cheat my way through anything. Every project I've ever done, I've sought out professionals with good reputations and I interview and I call references. And, yes, I did that when searching for a builder...contacted nine, narrowed it to four, interviewed those, visited their builds (new and older), called references (all of them), got their bids. I gave them completed drawings, including engineering, complete specs, and I mean complete specs including every last plumbing fixture, hardware, windows, doors, electrical fixtures including switches/outlets/dimmers, paint brand and color, wide plank pine flooring and the finish information...everything, except the actual plumbing plan because I found that each builder has their preference of who they work with. And, even after all of that, here I am with a builder who turns out is just ok.

Oh, well. I keep trying.

 

[TXCajun]

I'm so mad I could spit nails and cuss a blue streak! The danged p-trap is in the floor. By my calculations, the distance from the fixture outlet to the p-trap weir will be approximately 28-30 inches, well beyond the 24 inches or less for code compliance.

I don't even need to hear about the other questions I have. It stops right there with the p-trap being in the floor.

Looks like my builder and the plumber are going to have to eat this and make it right.

I am so glad my instincts told me to start asking questions and that I started here on this forum.

Thank you to the ones who were kind enough to provide just the facts, especially the ones who pointed me to the right code. I appreciate that.

What really stinks is that this makes clear that one can do everything right, ask the right questions, call all the references, look at the work, hire professionals with the proper licensing and reputation, and yet still wind up with this. Rather depressing.

Now to figure out how to not let this totally destroy my weekend. <sigh>

 

[Terry]

I feel your pain. You have been very careful too. Even with the best research with who you are hiring, you just never know.

The project below was one I plumbed in 1990. The plans for the stairway were showing a four foot ceiling between the lobby and the second story. My pipes for the roof drains were also there, so as I was planning my work, I picked up on it. I told the framers and they didn't understand the flaw in the plan. At the time I was doing a lot of AutoCad drawings, and mid 80's I was a home builder drawing up my own plans. I had them send the plans back, and the revision was even worse. I marked up the wall that had to move and they sent it back. This time they got it right. The framers looked me and asked.

"Is it okay to frame the next floor plumber?"

Yep, Let's do this thing.

I also plumbed the parking garage to the right.

As a side note, this was also when I discovered a new chiropractic technique. I was lifting 8" cast iron pipe on ladders and installing it overhead. Thirty years later and no pain pills, and I get my skiing and hiking in. My season pass is at Stevens and I try to hit up Whistler in Canada at least once a year.

 

[wwhitney]

The danged p-trap is in the floor.

Good luck. I forget what you said is below (if you did). If it's a drywall ceiling, it should be a relatively easy fix for your builder and plumber: cut open the drywall ceiling, replace p-trap with an elbow, fix pipes under the cabinet, patch and paint ceiling.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[TXCajun]

Good luck. I forget what you said is below (if you did). If it's a drywall ceiling, it should be a relatively easy fix for your builder and plumber: cut open the drywall ceiling, replace p-trap with an elbow, fix pipes under the cabinet, patch and paint ceiling.

Cheers, Wayne

Yep, the ceiling below is drywall, thankfully! I've got t&g ceilings elsewhere. Guess I dodged a bullet, there.

 

[TXCajun]

I feel your pain. You have been very careful too. Even with the best research with who you are hiring, you just never know.

The project below was one I plumbed in 1990. The plans for the stairway were showing a four foot ceiling between the lobby and the second story. My pipes for the roof drains were also there, so as I was planning my work, I picked up on it. I told the framers and they didn't understand the flaw in the plan. At the time I was doing a lot of AutoCad drawings, and mid 80's I was a home builder drawing up my own plans. I had them send the plans back, and the revision was even worse. I marked up the wall that had to move and they sent it back. This time they got it right. The framers looked me and asked.

"Is it okay to frame the next floor plumber?"

Yep, Let's do this thing.

I also plumbed the parking garage to the right.

As a side note, this was also when I discovered a new chiropractic technique. I was lifting 8" cast iron pipe on ladders and installing it overhead. Thirty years later and no pain pills, and I get my skiing and hiking in. My season pass is at Stevens and I try to hit up Whistler in Canada at least once a year.

I'm thankful for your forum! Thank you for providing such a valuable service.

 

[Reach4]

I'm so mad I could spit nails and cuss a blue streak! The danged p-trap is in the floor. By my calculations, the distance from the fixture outlet to the p-trap weir will be approximately 28-30 inches, well beyond the 24 inches or less for code compliance.

I am skeptical. I would wonder if the project manager thought that the story that the trap was under the floor sounded better than the trap was not there at all.

Besides sending a cotton rope down there to see if it gets wet, I can think of another non-camera test.

 

[Terry]

I am skeptical. I would wonder if the project manager thought that the story that the trap was under the floor sounded better than the trap was not there at all.

Besides sending a cotton rope down there to see if it gets wet, I can think of another non-camera test.

You might have a point there. I would want to make sure whether there was a 90 or a p-trap down there too.
If it's a 90 then no reason to open the ceiling.

 

[Reach4]

Let me describe my non-cotton-rope method.

Put water down the drain. Run a piece of tubing down the pipe until you can feel the change of direction retarding the tube. You could unscrew the AAV to get easy access. At this point, there are two ways to go.

1. blow gently. If there is a bit of resistance at low pressure, or it feels like you are blowing bubbles, then there would be a trap with water standing in it.
2. Make sure the tubing is clear. Push one end into the pipe to where it should be in standing water in a trap if present. Put the top end into a glass of water. If there is no standing water down there, the level of water in the tube, as you insert it into the water in the glass will equalize to the level of the water outside of the tube. If there is water, expect the water in the tube to be maybe an inch lower than the water outside the tube, as you are inserting the tube into the water in the glass.

If you know somebody who uses oxygen, they throw away a length of suitable tubing each month. Otherwise you can buy some tubing.

 

[Tuttles Revenge]

Let me describe my non-cotton-rope method.

Put water down the drain. Run a piece of tubing down the pipe until you can feel the change of direction retarding the tube. You could unscrew the AAV to get easy access. At this point, there are two ways to go.

1. blow gently. If there is a bit of resistance at low pressure, or it feels like you are blowing bubbles, then there would be a trap with water standing in it.
2. Make sure the tubing is clear. Push one end into the pipe to where it should be in standing water in a trap if present. Put the top end into a glass of water. If there is no standing water down there, the level of water in the tube, as you insert it into the water in the glass will equalize to the level of the water outside of the tube. If there is water, expect the water in the tube to be maybe an inch lower than the water outside the tube, as you are inserting the tube into the water in the glass.

If you know somebody who uses oxygen, they throw away a length of suitable tubing each month. Otherwise you can buy some tubing.

Just cut the cap off the top of that san tee and shine a light and look.. if you see a reflection, its a trap. Better yet.. make the plumber prove there isn't a trap there by running a camera down the drain.

Just got done reading this whole debacle.. Wow!!

And when they finish installing the new 2" pipe through into the cabinet.. make sure its in the back of the cabinet (like the photo that Terry provided) which they need to completely replace since the floor of it is now trashed.

 

[TXCajun]

Thanks for the suggestions for verifying that there is (or isn't) a p-trap under the floor. At this point, I'm not playin' around. I will require a camera.

The new install cannot go in the wall as there is a large bank of windows above the countertop with lots of framing, blocking, etc. in the wall behind the cabinet box.

Going off of Terry's photo of the plumbing going through the floor, is my own edited photo showing the configuration I should be requiring? I included a p-trap, a run of straight pipe sort of y-ing into the other pipe with an AAV located rather high, and a clean-out below.

If that's correct, are there some basic lengths, runs, sizes that are required?

Thanks.

 

[TXCajun]

Just cut the cap off the top of that san tee and shine a light and look.. if you see a reflection, its a trap. Better yet.. make the plumber prove there isn't a trap there by running a camera down the drain.

Just got done reading this whole debacle.. Wow!!

And when they finish installing the new 2" pipe through into the cabinet.. make sure its in the back of the cabinet (like the photo that Terry provided) which they need to completely replace since the floor of it is now trashed.

I think I misunderstood your suggestion to "make sure its in the back of the cabinet..." I thought you meant run it through the back wall of the cabinet, but now am thinking you meant have them move the pipe going through the floor closer to the back wall of the cabinet. Did you mean move it closer to the back wall?

 

[wwhitney]

Yeah, that's what he meant. I'd say it's a small point and would require repairing the floor of the cabinet, so not really worth. Would have been nice, though.

Your drawing is basically correct, what you called a "wye" is really a sanitary-tee. And if you have a trap adapter at the sanitary-tee, and use a tubular trap, there's no really need for a separate cleanout. It's easy enough to remove the tubular trap and access the drain through the trap adapter / sanitary-tee.

Cheers, Wayne