Kitchen Sink Plumbing Config...Good, Bad, and/or Ugly?

[TXCajun]

Hi, all.

First time posting. I know practically nothing regarding plumbing. Having a new home built. The kitchen sink plumbing has been installed and I can say I've never seen this type of configuration. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, code complaint or not, well or poorly done. Again, I know very little.

Since this is a totally new configuration to me, I figured I'd post here and ask for some feedback. No doubt you'll ask questions and I will try my best to give you accurate answers.

Yes, I've asked my site manager about this and he said he will ask the plumber why it's like this. Since I've used this forum for other research that paid off bigtime, I figured I should join and ask away.

What do you think about this...right, wrong, right but poorly done, get a new plumber, or this is golden?

Kind Regards,

TXCajun

 

[Reach4]

Oops. Not good. It needs a p-trap. That is a big deal. The trap is what keeps you from smelling sewer gasses.
The AAV is not as high as it is supposed to be (4 inches up). That is a lesser deal.

Dishwashers now are required to feed through an air gap on new installations.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

I'm not seeing a p-trap for that. If that is an AAV, it should be higher. Most are supposed to be 4" or higher.

 

[TXCajun]

Thank you Reach4 and Terry. I greatly appreciate the feedback.

Yes, I am used to seeing a p-trap. That's the one thing I know! I asked my site manager and he said he thinks they located it under the floor. (This house is on a lakeside hill and has a crawlspace (the part at the downhill side being 14' high), then the first level, with the second (topmost) level having the kitchen.)

1) If there is a p-trap in the floor, is that why there's an AAV? Any other reason for the AAV? I don't even know what an AAV is, but will look it up!

2) Is it ok that a p-trap is located in the floor? I really cannot fathom why that would be the case. Why wouldn't it have been located in the cabinet closer to the sink?

3) Out of curiosity, is there a way one can determine if there is a p-trap in a floor without having to tear out the floor? Maybe a plumber with a camera?

I will bring up the location of the AAV. Thank you for being specific about that!

I love this forum. It was of tremendous help when they were building my shower pan. I knew exactly what to look for. Also, the information regarding toilets was invaluable, as well.

Thanks!

 

[wwhitney]

1) An AAV is an alternative to have a vent pipe through the roof. The AAV has to be after the trap. So if the upper connection of that tee is for an AAV, then the trap has to be in the cabinet. And . . .

2) The trap has to be within 24" vertically of the bottom of the sink. So not under the floor. IPC 1002.1
"The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm)"
https://up.codes/viewer/texas/ipc-2015/chapter/10/traps-interceptors-and-separators#1002.1

3) You said you have a crawlspace, so the space can be crawled to see if there's a trap under the floor. If there is, it has to be removed, as you can only have one trap, and it needs to be in the cabinet.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

Yes, I am used to seeing a p-trap. That's the one thing I know! I asked my site manager and he said he thinks they located it under the floor.

I suspect he is a salesman rather than a worker bee.

1) If there is a p-trap in the floor, is that why there's an AAV? Any other reason for the AAV? I don't even know what an AAV is, but will look it up!

Your thought is correct. He is making that up.

2) Is it ok that a p-trap is located in the floor? I really cannot fathom why that would be the case. Why wouldn't it have been located in the cabinet closer to the sink?

It is not OK in the US. Canada often allows p-traps below the floor when not allowed in the US.

3) Out of curiosity, is there a way one can determine if there is a p-trap in a floor without having to tear out the floor? Maybe a plumber with a camera?

You could stick a piece of cotton rope etc down there, and see if it comes up wet, even tho you have not used that drain for a good while.

 

[TXCajun]

1) An AAV is an alternative to have a vent pipe through the roof. The AAV has to be after the trap. So if the upper connection of that tee is for an AAV, then the trap has to be in the cabinet. And . . .

2) The trap has to be within 24" vertically of the bottom of the sink. So not under the floor. IPC 1002.1
"The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm)"
https://up.codes/viewer/texas/ipc-2015/chapter/10/traps-interceptors-and-separators#1002.1

3) You said you have a crawlspace, so the space can be crawled to see if there's a trap under the floor. If there is, it has to be removed, as you can only have one trap, and it needs to be in the cabinet.

Cheers, Wayne

Thank you, Wayne. I greatly appreciate being pointed to actual code! That is so helpful. I did attempt a search prior to posting my original questions, but didn't know enough to get good (any) search results. You cleared that right up!

TXCajun

 

[TXCajun]

I suspect he is a salesman rather than a worker bee.

Your thought is correct. He is making that up.

It is not OK in the US. Canada often allows p-traps below the floor when not allowed in the US.
You could stick a piece of cotton rope etc down there, and see if it comes up wet, even tho you have not used that drain for a good while.

Reach4,

Well, there it is. Dang. I love learning but it's not much fun when it means I have to get something corrected. Must be done and I will make it happen. No hyperbole...This forum saved me from a lot of troubles when I saw the building of my shower pan was not starting off right. I knew exactly what to say and got them on the right track. The fact that my site manager did not catch it was a real wake-up call for me! That's why I'm here, now.

Thanks for the no nonsense feedback!

TXCajun

 

[Reach4]

Was there supposedly a plumbing inspector?

You should get some inspection help before stuff gets covered up. I expect your insulation has a lot of gaps.

 

[TXCajun]

Was there supposedly a plumbing inspector?

You should get some inspection help before stuff gets covered up. I expect your insulation has a lot of gaps.

Yes, there was a plumbing inspection. Have had inspections for every benchmark. That is what is leading me to think (hope) there is not a p-trap in the floor. Since this plumbing installation for the sink just happened, it has not yet been inspected. This will be interesting!

Actually, the insulation was done rather nicely!

I've been taking so many stinkin' photos starting before the foundation forms were built. Tomorrow, I'm going to go back through them to see if I can find any that show the plumbing in that area before the insulation went in. The kitchen is on the top floor with bedrooms below. No way to access the space between the floors and ceilings in that area.

I will get to the bottom of this and things will be corrected!

 

[Jeff H Young]

not meaning this against you txcajun but if you know nothing about plumbing but you know more than the builder or the subs there is a problem. what kind of project is this ? I hope your an expert at hvac , electrical , carpentry and roofing . depending on an inspector now thats scarey

 

[TXCajun]

not meaning this against you txcajun but if you know nothing about plumbing but you know more than the builder or the subs there is a problem. what kind of project is this ? I hope your an expert at hvac , electrical , carpentry and roofing . depending on an inspector now thats scarey

No offense taken! I am not an expert at plumbing, carpentry, or roofing. I have an architect. I have an engineer. They are fabulous. I do understand that depending on inspectors can be at one's peril, but thus far, mine has shown competence and been very helpful. Turns out my builder is just ok, but thankfully most of the trades he puts on site have been by far his betters. Would I recommend this builder to anyone? Never.

In my past, I have done much renovation and restoration work. I suppose I was lucky because I always managed to find professional trades that cared about their work and loved talking about it with me. That has made me wise enough to question things. Does it make me an expert? Nope. Not even close. And, when I say I know practically nothing about plumbing, that is the truth. All I can go on is what I'm used to seeing. This config is new to me. So, I started asking questions. Now that I've gotten the above responses, I have information I was lacking and can speak more intelligently with my site manager and the plumber.

Lastly, I do love very old architecture and love saving old homes. Until now, I have never lived in or built a new home. Yep, I will never do this, again. But, before breaking ground, I did lots of research so I would know what to expect. Again, that did not make me an expert, but it did help me know and be brave enough to ask questions.

 

[TXCajun]

Oops. Not good. It needs a p-trap. That is a big deal. The trap is what keeps you from smelling sewer gasses.
The AAV is not as high as it is supposed to be (4 inches up). That is a lesser deal.

Dishwashers now are required to feed through an air gap on new installations.

Hi, again, Reach4

After your response, I did some searching and learned what an air gap is. A few years back, I had to spend some time in California and recall seeing a cap sort of thing on the countertop near the kitchen faucet. I had no clue that it was an air gap. Now I know!

I have lived in Texas for almost fifty years and have never seen an air gap on a countertop. And, if there was one at all anywhere, I have no idea.

Looking at my photos originally posted, is that configuration showing I am getting the required dishwasher air gap? Is that what that extra little pipe with the black collar is, by chance?

 

[Reach4]

Looking at my photos originally posted, is that configuration showing I am getting the required dishwasher air gap? Is that what that extra little pipe with the black collar is, by chance?

You have no air gap. You are approximately using the old "high loop" method. There's a search term for you.

That black thing is just a piece of hose being used as a connector. The white thing on the right of that hose is called a branch tailpiece extension.

Your normal dishwasher air gap has a bigger output than input diameter. Some of those are made to serve as an air gap for two things, such as a dishwasher and a reverse osmosis unit. Some reverse osmosis (RO) dispensers (spigots) combine air gap for the RO and the dishwasher with the dispenser to fit in one hole.

 

[TXCajun]

You have no air gap. You are approximately using the old "high loop" method. There's a search term for you.

That black thing is just a piece of hose being used as a connector. The white thing on the right of that hose is called a branch tailpiece extension.

Your normal dishwasher air gap has a bigger output than input diameter. Some of those are made to serve as an air gap for two things, such as a dishwasher and a reverse osmosis unit. Some reverse osmosis (RO) dispensers (spigots) combine air gap for the RO and the dishwasher with the dispenser to fit in one hole.

Thank you! So, I definitely have some discussions coming with the plumber.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you! So, I definitely have some discussions coming with the plumber.

My dishwasher uses high loop too. That was the norm for a long time. High loop is not shocking.

Having a trap has been the norm for over 100 years. Some types of traps became forbidden at various points, but there was always a trap required.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Tx cajun, Never seen such work its just bizarre And Hats off to you learning all you can . Obviously to me there is no "plumber" or "site manager" . I don't expect you to be an expert at all . Seriously should consider hiring your own professional to inspect . unless this was your only issue . hopefully water , waste and gas was tested before sheet rock

 

[TXCajun]

Tx cajun, Never seen such work its just bizare And Hats off to you learning all you can . Obviously to me there is no "plumber" or "site manager" . I dont expect you to be an expert at all . Seriously should concider hiring your own professional to inspect . unless this was your only issue . hopefully water , waste and gas was tested befor sheet rock

It is new to me, as well! I've never seen this config, but will get answers from the plumber. The plumbing crew is licensed, been around a long time, and used by many. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they're on point with everything. I really need to hear what they have to say about this specific config. The other installations they've done are on point. Yes, all tests were done before walls were closed in. Everything good.

Now, my site manager is another story. Very nice, helpful, professional. I think he's young and inexperienced. I'm not too happy about it and that's why I'm diligent about visiting the site every day, more than once a day. I take photos and make notes. I ask my questions and then verify.

 

[TXCajun]

1) An AAV is an alternative to have a vent pipe through the roof. The AAV has to be after the trap. So if the upper connection of that tee is for an AAV, then the trap has to be in the cabinet. And . . .

2) The trap has to be within 24" vertically of the bottom of the sink. So not under the floor. IPC 1002.1
"The vertical distance from the fixture outlet to the trap weir shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm)"
https://up.codes/viewer/texas/ipc-2015/chapter/10/traps-interceptors-and-separators#1002.1

3) You said you have a crawlspace, so the space can be crawled to see if there's a trap under the floor. If there is, it has to be removed, as you can only have one trap, and it needs to be in the cabinet.

Cheers, Wayne

Wayne,

I've been studying the code that Texas follows and that's been very helpful for my understanding. Your point about the AAV having to be after the trap is what I'm honing in on, now. I have to find out if that is for an AAV. From my new understanding, I'm guessing it is because my architect did not want a vent stack penetrating the roof.

My plumbers are back on site, tomorrow, and I'll get to visit with the lead guy. I'm not in a panic and I believe I now have a basic enough understanding that I can intelligently converse with him.

Things will get worked out, one way or the other.

 

[wwhitney]

I don't think there was a question in there. Let us know how it turns out.

Cheers, Wayne