Katalox Backwash How High Lift

[iblackihiawk]

I recently got a Katalox Light filter

2510SXT Fleck

When I watch it backwash which I can kind of do through the white wrapped tank, only like one side of the katalox is getting lifted and its only being lifted like 3-4 inches up sort of bubbling/flying up. Does that seem right or should the whole tank be mixing or more than that.

If it is hardening in the bottom does anyone have a recommendation to break it up? I could disconnect and then spray water in or something idk.

I tested for 7GPM which is all I should need for my tank...but I feel like it is just not getting lift.

I don't have any iron...but still seems pretty bad and concerned its going to freeze up. I have it BW every night instead of 2-3 days just to try to limit this but would like to not have to do this.

 

[Reach4]

10 inch tank? A few minutes into the backwash, what does the pressure gauge read?

Table based on graph in https://www.watchwater.de/pdf/katalox-light/KL_Brochure_NEW_ver_1.1.pdf

You could try measuring the flow from the drain line. If S is the number of seconds required to fill a 5-gallon bucket, then the GPM is 300/S. If the drain line is restricted, that could be the limiting factor rather than the DLFC.

You could also try removing the BLFC DLFC and use some other means to limit the flow, such as the bypass valve, to get things moving initially. Maybe that would shake things up. Or if you have a top basket, you could probably let the flow be too much for a while without losing media.

I would guess this media is being used for H2S.

 

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[iblackihiawk]

10 inch tank? A few minutes into the backwash, what does the pressure gauge read?

Table based on graph in https://www.watchwater.de/pdf/katalox-light/KL_Brochure_NEW_ver_1.1.pdf

You could try measuring the flow from the drain line. If S is the number of seconds required to fill a 5-gallon bucket, then the GPM is 300/S. If the drain line is restricted, that could be the limiting factor rather than the DLFC.

You could also try removing the BLFC and use some other means to limit the flow, such as the bypass valve, to get things moving initially. Maybe that would shake things up. Or if you have a top basket, you could probably let the flow be too much for a while without losing media.

I would guess this media is being used for H2S.

It is a 1" tank and the distributor said it was 1cu/ft of media or something. I am using it for H2S and 3ppm of Iron.

I just checked the flow rate of the drain line

It took approx 40s to fill up a 5 gal bucket so i'm only at about 7.5 gpm

I increased my well pressure tank to 50-70 which helped a bit but it seems like the flow out of the drain line is maxed out...I will check the downstream side with a hose (i have a spigot just on the other side of the softener) and see if that is the same fill rate (i think its much higher just based on my guess).

I have a well-x-trol 251...

Is there anything else I can do to increase flow rate?

I'm not sure how to increase the drain line size... I will update back when I get the results of the hose test in a few minutes (after the backwash is done).

I can say I have two parallel lines in front of the katalox tank and one is filtered and one is not filtered and I have a filter downstream of both my softener and my katalox tank. When I go to the unfiltered feed the downsteam filter (downstream of my softener) it starts picking up iron...so the katalox tank is not working well (it is a 5 micron filter). The katalox tank has been in service maybe 2-3 weeks. Could it already be stuck and I need to break up the media? If so how would I go about doing that? Just removing the head and putting a pole in to break it up?

 

[iblackihiawk]

Update:

Just checked with Hose downstream of everything.

Took under 30s to fill up 5 gal bucket...

Approximately 28s so I do have roughly 10gpm downstream so the drain hose might be a limiting factor.

Also I did increase the pressure controller to 50-70 instead of 40-60 so that probably helped.

Do you mean remove that BLFC (not entirely sure what it is) and throttling the bypass to limit flow so I don't lose media? Based on my GPM I think I would be fine regardless but I could be wrong.

Edit:

One other note, but it looks like the inside of the tank is reddish now above where the media is whereas I don't remember it being reddish before...does that mean its staining it and its not mixing well?

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

Talking tank diameter. To measure diameter, measure circumference by wrapping a cord around, mark the cord, measure the distance between marks, and divide by pi (3.14). Then round down to the nearest inch.
1 cuft of media would typically be in a 9 inch diameter tank.

10gpm in a 9 inch tank is a lot. Could it be that your white covering blocks your view of half of the shadow?

I meant to type DLFC both places. I will correct my mistake on the previous post. DLFC is drain line flow control, and is where the drain line connects. Your service manual refers to a flow control and a "Washer, flow"

Reddish deposit I would expect to be normal. Do you have a top basket -- slotted thing high on the distributor tube or do you have a mushroom shaped diffuser a bit farther down?

 

[iblackihiawk]

Talking tank diameter. To measure diameter, measure circumference by wrapping a cord around, mark the cord, measure the distance between marks, and divide by pi (3.14). Then round down to the nearest inch.
1 cuft of media would typically be in a 9 inch diameter tank.

10gpm in a 9 inch tank is a lot. Could it be that your white covering blocks your view of half of the shadow?

I meant to type DLFC both places. I will correct my mistake on the previous post. DLFC is drain line flow control, and is where the drain line connects. Your service manual refers to a flow control and a "Washer, flow"

Reddish deposit I would expect to be normal. Do you have a top basket -- slotted thing high on the distributor tube or do you have a mushroom shaped diffuser a bit farther down?

I'm pretty sure I can see what is moving...could be wrong, its pretty clear.

Its basically Media up to a point and then on opposite sides of the tank it looks like its is more bubbling up like 3-4 inches and not the entire set of media being lifted.

Again it could have been stuck sometime during the first couple weeks. I'll check the tank with a string again. I just did a straight measurement by putting boards on either side of it and measuring between them. I'm only getting 7.5gpm out of the tank drain though.

Either way it doesn't seem to be filtering out the Iron well right now since the 50/5 filter downstream of the softener is starting to turn reddish/brown after I went to the "bypass" into the katalox tank. When I told the distributor that I had filters upstream of the Katalox tank he told me I should remove them and put one between the softener and the katalox tank (something I am going to do when I have time). So I have tried just going on bypass so that the clogged filter (it gets full dirty in 2 weeks and needs to be changed) doesn't limit the flow too much. It does have a 5 PSIG drop between the front of the filter and the end when its pretty dirty (I have gauges on either side)

My current setup is:

3/4" Line --> Spin Down 200micron ---> Spin down 100 Micron --> 10" BB 75/25 filter ---> 10" BB (No Filter) ---> Katalox --->Softener-->10" BB (25/5) filter --> Main line House

When I say I switched to bypass I'm saying:

3/4" Line --> Katalox --> Softener --> 10" BB (25/5) filter --> Main line House

 

[Reach4]

Again it could have been stuck sometime during the first couple weeks. I'll check the tank with a string again. I just did a straight measurement by putting boards on either side of it and measuring between them. I'm only getting 7.5gpm out of the tank drain though.

At first I did not understand what you were going to do with boards, but I figured out that you will use them like the giant caliper blades.

7.5 is probably adequate for 10 inch and excessive for 9 inch.

The un-expanded media bed is about 2/3 the height of the tank inside. If you expanded to the top, that would be 50% expansion, and that would be too much. I would prefer to see 30% to 35% expansion.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/change-fe-filter-to-katalox.81045/page-2 #32. That shows a top basket gunked with iron gunk, and shows a diffuser. Right now I have neither on my iron+H2S filter. I did have a basket, but it got gunked up. So I removed it, expecting my bed expansion would not blow media out of the top during backwash.

During normal operation, the untreated water comes in the top. So deposits there seem normal

 

[iblackihiawk]

At first I did not understand what you were going to do with boards, but I figured out that you will use them like the giant caliper blades.

7.5 is probably adequate for 10 inch and excessive for 9 inch.

The un-expanded media bed is about 2/3 the height of the tank inside. If you expanded to the top, that would be 50% expansion, and that would be too much. I would prefer to see 30% to 35% expansion.

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/change-fe-filter-to-katalox.81045/page-2 #32. That shows a top basket gunked with iron gunk, and shows a diffuser. Right now I have neither on my iron+H2S filter. I did have a basket, but it got gunked up. So I removed it, expecting my bed expansion would not blow media out of the top during backwash.

During normal operation, the untreated water comes in the top. So deposits there seem normal

Would a video of light showing through and then showing how much expansion I'm getting give a good idea of what I'm talking about I'll make one later today and post it.

It does seem like I'm getting more lift from increasing my well tank pressure from 40/60 to like 68/48 or something. I don't see any media coming out, but still concerned its not taking out any iron downstream now without the filters ahead of it.

I will update later with a video and what I'm seeing.

Edit: I used the rope method just to check but its definitely a 10in tank.

 

[Reach4]

Still wondering about the tank diameter.
When you backwash, do you see orange water from the drain line?

 

[iblackihiawk]

Still wondering about the tank diameter.
When you backwash, do you see orange water from the drain line?

I did both "Caliper" method with the boards and the "string" method you described to get circumference and back calculate to the diameter. Both gave me 10in (not sure why they used that size thank but whatever).

See video above to know what I am talking about.

When it initially turns on you see media shoot up, the airbubble leave and then it goes to this, it kind of moves around where its throwing it up the most but I would have thought it would have been all over and not just one spot...

Ive backwashed probably 4 times for 15 min today, I can do it a couple more times later or a really long one later.

I did notice on the first one that the water a little red, but now its mostly clear (although no water usage obviously).

The spin down filters actually catch quite a bit of iron flakes so I need to move those to the bypass (or one of them at least).

 

[Reach4]

Interesting video. 10x54 is a common good sized tank. It normally contains 1.5 cuft of media in most uses. You have 1 cuft, but probably that is to leave space for a big air bubble. I always thought the bubble would be over a 1.5 cuft of media.

I am not a pro. Your bed expansion seems inadequate.

I suspect you don't have gravel and would benefit from 15 pounds of suitable gravel. That spreads out the flow. But I also would have thought you would have had higher expansion at the higher-flow places with 7.5 GPM. If you add gravel on top, it should move to the bottom on the next backwash.

I could see one 200 micron spindown filter, between the pressure tank and the KL, and no other filtering. Maybe move the finer spindown after the KL and the cartridge after the softener.

During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? Are you confident that you were able to fill that 5 gallon bucket from the drain line in 40 seconds?

 

[iblackihiawk]

Interesting video. 10x54 is a common good sized tank. It normally contains 1.5 cuft of media in most uses. You have 1 cuft, but probably that is to leave space for a big air bubble. I always thought the bubble would be over a 1.5 cuft of media.

I am not a pro. Your bed expansion seems inadequate.

I suspect you don't have gravel and would benefit from 15 pounds of suitable gravel. That spreads out the flow. But I also would have thought you would have had higher expansion at the higher-flow places with 7.5 GPM. If you add gravel on top, it should move to the bottom on the next backwash.

I could see one 200 micron spindown filter, between the pressure tank and the KL, and no other filtering. Maybe move the finer spindown after the KL and the cartridge after the softener.

During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? Are you confident that you were able to fill that 5 gallon bucket from the drain line in 40 seconds?

I just filled a bucket 5x

It averaged actually 44s. So I'm not getting the 7.5 or 8 that I'm looking for.

I'm not entirely sure how to actually get more pressure honestly. I am going to try to fill it with the hose downstream a couple times and get a good average again but it was much higher to fill with a hose downstream at a spigot than it was through that drain and got me much closer to 10 gpm vs this low amount.

Is this something I need to get a larger well pressure tank or do I need to get a better actual well pump, I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Reach4]

I would start with a higher DLFC. You probably have a 7 gpm unit. As you change from 7 to an 8 or a 9, more than just the rubber button needs to get changed. I have not seen those, but you can research. The DLFC is a flow regulator/limiter. Not a super sharp cutoff, but it may be the limiting factor.

I will ask again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go?

 

[iblackihiawk]

I would start with a higher DLFC. You probably have a 7 gpm unit. As you change from 7 to an 8 or a 9, more than just the rubber button needs to get changed. I have not seen those, but you can research. The DLFC is a flow regulator/limiter. Not a super sharp cutoff, but it may be the limiting factor.

I will ask again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go?

I checked downstream at the spigot and got btw 7-8 gpm.

I checked the upstream spigot at the pressure tank (at the base) which is off of 1" copper and its like 12-15gpm. It was filling up the bucket like a rocket...and honestly it was difficult to do by myself at the rate it was filling.

I'm actually convinced now that I made a mistake installing 3/4" PEX and should have installed 1" PEX to feed the tank. Initially when I did research it looked like 3/4" would be good for 8 GPM and it is a VERY short run from the pressure tank to these tanks, but I think it is enough that it drops the flow rate too low and it cannot keep up.

I am likely going to either sweat some 1" from the 1" Tee that was left off of the line coming out of the pressure tank or install 1" PEX, I'm trying to figure out how much drop I am going to have if I do go with 1" PEX.

It looks like 1" PEX is actually smaller than 3/4" Copper (with fittings) so I'm not sure what to do yet, but I'm pretty convinced now that my inlet GPM is too low.

On a side note

I called the local well drilling/treatment company and they had record that my well pump is rated for 15 GPM (he figured it could probably do 20) so the 12-15 that I am getting is likely a good verification of this. I was astonished the difference between the 8ish that I was getting vs the 12 like it is not even comparable how much more water was coming out.

I will update again later to help others.

PEX:
3/4" = 0.681" ID
1" = 0.875" ID
Copper:
3/4" 0.811" ID
1" = 1.055"ID

Honestly I cannot find the actual ID of the barbed fittings for pex ANYWHERE. but they are obviously smaller.

 

[iblackihiawk]

One other question but do you absolutely need loops on either side of the katalox tank?

I have one loop down to the inlet and then it ties directly into the softener on the outlet. Does it need a loop on the outlet side?

I saw some pictures have it and some don't so wasn't sure.

Thanks

Finalizing my final setup and wanted to know while I was at it.

 

[LLigetfa]

If you want to know the actual backwash GPM, capture the flow from the drain line and measure/time it. Measuring it at a spigot is meaningless.

Also, measuring the flow rate while drawing down the tank storage is not the same as measuring the flow rate from the pump.

I ran 1 - 1/4" PVC from the tank to the filter that transitioned to the 1" inlet at the filter head. My backwash drain line is a 10 foot run of 1/2" PEX with only one fitting connecting at the head.

 

[iblackihiawk]

If you want to know the actual backwash GPM, capture the flow from the drain line and measure/time it. Measuring it at a spigot is meaningless.

Also, measuring the flow rate while drawing down the tank storage is not the same as measuring the flow rate from the pump.

I ran 1 - 1/4" PVC from the tank to the filter that transitioned to the 1" inlet at the filter head. My backwash drain line is a 10 foot run of 1/2" PEX with only one fitting connecting at the head.

Yeah I did measure this earlier and was getting only about 6.5 GPM

I was just checking the GPM upstream, Drain Line, and Downstream.

12-15GPM upstream, 6.5 GPM drain line, 7-8GPM downstream (there is probably some GPM drop due to the resistance of the media albeit only probably .5-1GPM)

So I've basically determined that I am having too much volume loss between the tank and the filter with the 3/4" PEX so I am going to upsize to either 1" Copper or 1" PEX I haven't decided yet.

The head on my tank is 3/4", so I will be running 1" to the 3/4" head which is roughly 12 ft. The drain line is 1/2" and is only about 5'-7' if you count horizontal and vertical run.

 

[Reach4]

One other question but do you absolutely need loops on either side of the katalox tank?

I have one loop down to the inlet and then it ties directly into the softener on the outlet. Does it need a loop on the outlet side?

I don't know what a loop means in this context, but I expect you do not need it. You do need to have the filter drain above a sink or drain, and not pressure its way into a sewage line.

Adding a boiler drain valve, which can mount a garden hose thread pressure gauge, on the input line on the filter could let you measure how much pressure you are dropping to on the way to the filter. You would like to have 30 psi, or 25 might be OK, into the

I will ask yet again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? There is a pressure gauge at your pressure tank. When the pressure levels off after the pump turns on during a backwash, how low does the pressure go?

Click the nbox envelope icon above, above. You may have a 7 gpm DLFC, and those are not high precision devices. One that passes more gpm might be needed.

 

[iblackihiawk]

I don't know what a loop means in this context, but I expect you do not need it. You do need to have the filter drain above a sink or drain, and not pressure its way into a sewage line.

I will ask yet again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? There is a pressure gauge at your pressure tank. When the pressure levels off after the pump turns on during a backwash, how low does the pressure go?

Click Inbox, above.

During backwash it actually does not hold a pressure, the pressure tank typically drops to 40/45 whatever I had it set to then turns back on, and the pump actually builds back up to 60/65 (upper limit) and then cycles off and repeats. Again another reason I believe I have a volume issue between the pressure tank and the filter.

Edit: To add to this, when I connected to the hose on the outlet side of the pressure tank it stablized between 45-50psig. When it was flowing the 12-15 gpm. Again this was hard to do between the timer/turning off the hose/watching the gage during the cycle of the pump.

This is from a random installation manual on katalox but I believe I saw it somewhere else as well.

Obviously it says recommended but wasn't sure if this is what others were practicing as well.

 

[Reach4]

Those loops are new to me. Maybe have one on the output, I am thinking. That would not restrict backwash rate.

Some build a device downstream to release the air that gets in the pipes.