Katalox Backwash How High Lift

[LLigetfa]

I don't know what a loop means in this context, but I expect you do not need it.

A loop will perform different functions in different positions. It acts to absorb expansion/contraction of the system due to pressure changes. I have a camera on my composite HP pressure tank and it reveals there is movement during changes in pressure.

A loop on the outlet side of a softener also provides a "volume buffer" so that hot water reversing during pressure changes does not flow back into the softener.

 

[iblackihiawk]

Those loops are new to me. Maybe have one on the output, I am thinking. That would not restrict backwash rate.

Some build a device downstream to release the air that gets in the pipes.

Okay that's good to hear, naturally my lines are above it on the inlet side but I wasn't going to drop below the tank then, I will forgo this. On the outlet side I probably will end up doing this as I may end up putting in the 100 micron spin down to catch any media if it were to get through between the Katalox filter and the Softener.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

Those loops are new to me. Maybe have one on the output, I am thinking. That would not restrict backwash rate.

True, that a loop on the output would have no effect, but a loop on the inlet if made with PEX elbows rather that bends, could have an effect on max GPM. Also, PEX A versus B has different size elbows.

 

[iblackihiawk]

I don't know what a loop means in this context, but I expect you do not need it. You do need to have the filter drain above a sink or drain, and not pressure its way into a sewage line.

Adding a boiler drain valve, which can mount a garden hose thread pressure gauge, on the input line on the filter could let you measure how much pressure you are dropping to on the way to the filter. You would like to have 30 psi, or 25 might be OK, into the

I will ask yet again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? There is a pressure gauge at your pressure tank. When the pressure levels off after the pump turns on during a backwash, how low does the pressure go?

Click Inbox, above. You may have a 7 gpm DLFC, and those are not high precision devices. One that passes more gpm might be needed.

I have one more thing to test but on the DLFC I have the plastic one which is the standard there was a 7gpm limiter on it which is probably why I was getting like 6.5/6.6-7gpm. I actually just took it out completely and got around 7-7.5 but I am still limited by the actual 1/2" tubing that is connected to this which if you look in the manual says anything 8gpm or over you need to go to 3/4" and get a new DLFC.

I am double checking one more thing on the inlet feed side but I am starting to think that I need a larger DLFC. It also has me questioning whether or not the DLFC on my softener is correct since I think the rep was saying that I need 7ish to backwash that tank...

Will report back however it is VERY difficult to find anyone that has the DLFC that I am looking for.

 

[Reach4]

1. Did you understand the last sentence of post #18?
2. Did you understand my repeated question?

 

[iblackihiawk]

1. Did you understand the last sentence of post #18?
2. Did you understand my repeated question?

Yeah I thought by taking out the restrictor completely it would make a difference in the DLFC. I completely removed the o-ring or whatever and I think it is limited by the hose size 1/2" which is the standard. I saw the inbox message you sent but I'm not sure how I would get that installed into the fleck. I think I need this which is in the service manual it is just no one really sells it anymore https://www.cwwltd.com/60706-12-fleck-dlfc-3-4f-x-2510-5800-connector-kit-12-gpm-brass/ If I knew how to get it connected with the connector you gave then I would go with that. I was trying to find a quick connect fitting that works into the 2510 head that would then have that screwed onto it but I cannot find one.

Yeah I think in post 20 I answered your repeated question. Sorry if it wasn't clear or maybe I'm not answering fully.

I'm on a 40/60 pressure tank

When filling/backwashing the pressure drops to 40, and then while still backwashing it goes back up to 60 and then the pump turns off again. So the pump is able to overcome the backwashing volume so it is not the pump that is the issue. It is something between the inlet or outlet of the tank. I tried turning this up to 50/70 and it did the same thing. Down to 50 and then up to 70 which is about as tight as i can make the spring.

 

[iblackihiawk]

Did one final test with some help this time so I could get good timings and for an extended duration:

I attached to the spigot which is off of the 1" on the outlet of the pressure tank (with help).

I ran it for 15minutes and then filled up a bucket a couple times and got between 17-18s per bucket which gives me somewhere between 16-17 GPM so we will say that I have 15 GPM pump approximately.

The pump actually coming out of this spigot cannot keep up and build pressure in the pressure tank so it equalizes at 45psig on my 40/60 switch and doesn't drop or increase.

Last night I attached the hose from this spigot DIRECTLY to the Katalox tank and got "similar" results slightly better backwashing but still only some lift so now I am convinced it is the drain line cannot keep up like you alluded to earlier Reach4. I think I have 2 issues.

1. My inlet with the 3/4" pex probably drops the 15-17GPM down to 8-10GPM which may or may not be enough.
2. My outlet with the 1/2" DLFC and drainline (even with the restrictor button out which is 7GPM) is not enough to get the 8 GPM. Even with the restrictor removed I can only get about 7-7.5 GPM since the drainline is I believe restricting flow too much with a 1/2" ID.

I will call the manufacturer to see if I can get a brass DLFC or I will attempt to source one myself, or if I can figure out how to get whatever you sent me to work I will do that. I will likely go with either a 9 or 10gpm and see what results.

 

[Reach4]

Yeah I thought by taking out the restrictor completely it would make a difference in the DLFC. I completely removed the o-ring or whatever and I think it is limited by the hose size 1/2" which is the standard. I saw the inbox message you sent but I'm not sure how I would get that installed into the fleck. I think I need this which is in the service manual it is just no one really sells it anymore https://www.cwwltd.com/60706-12-fleck-dlfc-3-4f-x-2510-5800-connector-kit-12-gpm-brass/ If I knew how to get it connected with the connector you gave then I would go with that. I was trying to find a quick connect fitting that works into the 2510 head that would then have that screwed onto it but I cannot find one.

Yeah I think in post 20 I answered your repeated question. Sorry if it wasn't clear or maybe I'm not answering fully.

I'm on a 40/60 pressure tank

When filling/backwashing the pressure drops to 40, and then while still backwashing it goes back up to 60 and then the pump turns off again. So the pump is able to overcome the backwashing volume so it is not the pump that is the issue. It is something between the inlet or outlet of the tank. I tried turning this up to 50/70 and it did the same thing. Down to 50 and then up to 70 which is about as tight as i can make the spring.

At the start of post 19, I guess you were implying that the pressure at the pressure gauge stays above 39, and does not drop to 30. I guess I interpreted that as saying what the pressure switch was set to and you expected the pressure would not go below 40. So if the pressure does not drop down to 35, that would imply that the well pump and thing before the pressure gauge are not the limiting factors. So that is the path you have been pursuing.

 

[iblackihiawk]

At the start of post 19, I guess you were implying that the pressure at the pressure gauge stays above 39, and does not drop to 30. I guess I interpreted that as saying what the pressure switch was set to and you expected the pressure would not go below 40. So if the pressure does not drop down to 35, that would imply that the well pump and thing before the pressure gauge are not the limiting factors. So that is the path you have been pursuing.

How about question 2 from post #25? It was referring to the last paragraph of post #18.

This:
I will ask yet again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? There is a pressure gauge at your pressure tank. When the pressure levels off after the pump turns on during a backwash, how low does the pressure go??>

It goes to 40. Then the well pump clicks on and goes back up to 60 psig. When I am running through my water line it keeps cycling 60-->40-->60-->40-->60 etc etc...

When I run directly out of the spigot at the pressure tank (off of 1" Copper) it sits at 45 psig and doesn't move either way.

 

[Reach4]

This:
I will ask yet again: During backwash, how low does the pressure at the pressure tank go? There is a pressure gauge at your pressure tank. When the pressure levels off after the pump turns on during a backwash, how low does the pressure go??>

It goes to 40. Then the well pump clicks on and goes back up to 60 psig. When I am running through my water line it keeps cycling 60-->40-->60-->40-->60 etc etc...

When I run directly out of the spigot at the pressure tank (off of 1" Copper) it sits at 45 psig and doesn't move either way.

I was looking for "40". If the pump is not able to keep up, the pressure for some people operating backwashing filters falls to well below the pressure switch turn-on point.

I now see that the word Inbox no longer appears. Click the

icon, above.

 

[iblackihiawk]

I was looking for "40". If the pump is not able to keep up, the pressure for some people operating backwashing filters falls to well below the pressure switch turn-on point.

I now see that the word Inbox no longer appears. Click the View attachment 83758 icon, above.

I also talked to the distributor who thinks the tank is mucked up because i wasn't getting good flow with the filters ahead of it (I doubt it, since I was filtering out most if not all of the iron with the pre-filters i had, but it could be.

I am going to take off the head tonight probably and see what it looks like and see if I need to breakup the media at all.

If I do, what do people recommend to pour into the top to wash the media if it is hardened? Iron out? Peroxide? Bleach? And what concentration should I look to add.

I also asked him to see if they could sell me a higher flow DFCP which he highly recommended against and said the current setup should be fine. I disagree and think it should probably be a 3/4" line and a 8GPM dfcp based on the tables linked.

 

[Reach4]

You tried no DLFC.

I think the 9 gpm DLFC and increasing the drain line to 3/4 and making the path to the input 1 inch PEX, or at least 3/4, and getting rid of the two finer filters in that path could do it for you .

 

[iblackihiawk]

You tried no DLFC.

I think the 9 gpm DLFC and increasing the drain line to 3/4 and making the path to the input 1 inch PEX, or at least 3/4, and getting rid of the two finer filters in that path could do it for you .

View attachment 83772I

I will probably add some gravel, I'm not sure how it would hurt.

I also took it completely out of service for now I am going to redo the pex regardless for the water pressure in my house it can't hurt...

I took off the head and there is a diffuser basket on the top of the PVC line that goes from top to bottom. Is there a way to take that off?

It looks like there is a deflector at the top. You can just pull this off it looks like? Similar to the one on the left. There is not a basket like the one on the right.

 

[Reach4]

Good that you don't have that top basket. Keep the diffuser.
Did you click...?

 

[iblackihiawk]

Good that you don't have that top basket. Keep the diffuser.
Did you click...?

Yeah. For the gravel.

It looks like that diffuser just slides on, I'm trying to take off so I can check inside if the media is solid or not. It certainly doesn't look like it, but is there a reason I can't pull the diffuser up and then slide back down with some silicon grease?

 

[Reach4]

And not the DLFC? Is that your way of saying that you don't want a 9 gpm DLFC? I don't know the seller. At 50% bed expansion is where you start blowing media out the top with 1.5 cuft. With only 1 cuft of media, I expect there to be even more room.

I have not seen one. If you tug on the diffuser, you might also tug on the distributor tube. To get that back in place you might have to dump the media and put it back. You don't want that. You have a wonderfully unpainted tank that lets you see the KL rise. Give it some more water, and hope it rises nicely. I suspect it will. But if you start putting 17 gpm thru there, you may start blowing media out.

So with your new less restricted water path, maybe start by throttling the water flow during backwash, using the valve after the pressure tank, or the bypass on the filter. Increase the flow to get to about half way to the top, and see what gpm that is.

 

[iblackihiawk]

And not the DLFC? Is that your way of saying that you don't want a 9 gpm DLFC? I don't know the seller. At 50% bed expansion is where you start blowing media out the top with 1.5 cuft. With only 1 cuft of media, I expect there to be even more room.

I have not seen one. If you tug on the diffuser, you might also tug on the distributor tube. To get that back in place you might have to dump the media and put it back. You don't want that. You have a wonderfully unpainted tank that lets you see the KL rise. Give it some more water, and hope it rises nicely. I suspect it will. But if you start putting 17 gpm thru there, you may start blowing media out.

So with your new less restricted water path, maybe start by throttling the water flow during backwash, using the valve after the pressure tank, or the bypass on the filter. Increase the flow to get to about half way to the top, and see what gpm that is.

The DLFC You linked would work but I also need to find/buy the quick connect brass part that is difficult to find then screw that 9gpm limited onto it. I just wanted to see the media and see if it was hardened at all, at the very least, by rolling it around i was checking to see if there was any particular hardening setting in and I haven't seen any from the cracks i can see through.

Edit: I rolled the tank around a bit and if I look inside there is in fact some areas where it looks hardened. I'm not sure I will be able to break it up without pulling out the media.

Is it worth trying to clean media or is it just a better idea to just buy new and replace. If I could get the top difuser off without breaking it I would try to stick something down to break it up.

Also if I put iron out down there (it doesn't look rock hard) and let it soak and backwash it a couple times has that worked for anyone.

Thanks for all the help btw. I think a combination of the inlet line and the drain line DLFC has lead to this.

If I do go the re-bedding route, how much gravel do I need for 1.0cu/ft?

 

[Reach4]

I was under the impression that the softener had a 1/2 NPT thread and you could use something like this https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...e-Straight-5404-12-08-Adapter-9-5404-12-8.axd



So I envisioned you would take the current DLFC washer out. Unscrew elbow shown as part 25 on pages 15,16.

I could be wrong.

Alternatively, put a 1/2 3/4 bushing

into the input of the 3/4 DLFC assembly and use a 1/2 inch brass or stainless nipple between the valve and the DLFC. Or mount the DLFC farther downstream rather than as a potential lever on the valve. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Merit-Brass-K414-1208-T304-3-4-X-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Hex-Bushing

Note that DLFCs are not symmetrical-- there is an in and an out.

 

[iblackihiawk]

I was under the impression that the softener had a 1/2 NPT thread and you could use something like this https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...e-Straight-5404-12-08-Adapter-9-5404-12-8.axd



So I envisioned you would take the current DLFC washer out. Unscrew elbow shown as part 25 on pages 15,16.

I could be wrong.

Alternatively, put a 1/2 3/4 bushing

into the input of the 3/4 DLFC assembly and use a 1/2 inch brass or stainless nipple between the valve and the DLFC. Or mount the DLFC farther downstream rather than as a potential lever on the valve. https://www.supplyhouse.com/Merit-Brass-K414-1208-T304-3-4-X-1-2-Stainless-Steel-Hex-Bushing

Note that DLFCs are not symmetrical-- there is an in and an out.

I will certainly try this route first, and try soaking and backwashing it a couple times.

Does anyone have recommendations to try to break it up where it has hardened. Again it doesn't look too bad and frequent backwashing definitely has broken it up a little.

It is hardened in the middle around the tube which is likely why I'm getting it flying up in specific areas around the tank but not in the middle so much.

There is a brass quick connect with a 3/4" threaded connection already but this looks like it would probably be cheaper solution it also may not be a huge issue with the limited 1/2" only being limiting for less than an inch.

 

[Reach4]

I suspect that with your new less lossy path, you can adjust the flow up, and see the KL boiling at the right level. So use a valve to limit the flow and raise it until you are about half way to 2/3 of the way to the top. It would be interesting to see what gpm that occurs at.