Manual backwash "Salt Extender" protocol. Any downside?

[ergonomicmike]

Hi Water Softener Experts:

DIY'er here.

Years ago I installed a water softener for an elderly couple. It uses a Clack WS-1 Valve. Since then the husband died, leaving the widow as the only user. (48K capacity unit in a largish house.)

She doesn't use very much water and the Clack always shows half capacity of soft water remaining on Regen Day. (She showers twice a week. Washes her clothes every two weeks in a Low-Flo Front-loader, etc.)

Nevertheless, the Valve commands a regeneration every 14 days, per best practices, whether it needs to or not. (The "Day Override.")

(I have already lowered the salt dosage to 7.5 lbs. I don't want to go lower because then hardness leakage starts to be a problem.)

It seems to me that this mindless (unneeded?) Regeneration is a waste of salt. And a waste of water - especially here in the desert. And now, with inflation, a waste of more money for both.

So I've started manually commanding a backwash (actually, the 2nd backwash in a Clack) on Day 14 before it Regenerates duing the night. That resets the valve's short term metrics, and I let it regenerate 14 days later as normal.

If I understand correctly, the primary reason for forcing a fixed regeneration/having a Day Override is to undo channeling of the media.

And a possible second reason is to re-ionize the media at the bottom of the tank, which sees the brunt of ion exchange. (And so the media at the bottom of the tank might be depleted before the rest of the media higher up. Which can harm the media at the bottom.)

(I just thought of a possible third reason: Iron. But no iron here.)

If this is correct, then it seems to me that the two top concerns can be addressed by a simple backwash of the media, instead of a regeneration, when the majority of the media is relatively unused.

That is, a short backwash fluffs up the media "resetting" channeling to zero. And fluffing up the media will redistribute depleted media with undepleted media. Also, a short backwash will clean out debris as usual. (But city water here. Very clean.)

I've been using this manual Salt-Extender protocol for a couple months now. I've measured the hardness of the water (using a titration kit) before the monthly regen and it's stays unchanged (1 grain) during the entire month.

So my question: Am I harming anything by manually performing my protocol? Any downside?

 

[Reach4]

Nevertheless, the Valve commands a regeneration every 14 days, per best practices, whether it needs to or not. (The "Day Override.")

With no iron, set the day override to 30.

To save more water, you may be able to lower the backwash and fast rinse times.

(I just thought of a possible third reason: Iron. But no iron here.)

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ergonomicmike]

With no iron, set the day override to 30.

Thanks. That would be a lot easier.

I was going by what Gary S said to do when he sold the kit. He said to set Day Override to 8. Which I thought was excessive. The Clack manual says default is 14.

So to be clear then, channeling/tunneling is not a problem? (I suppose a water test at the 30 day mark will tell me.)

 

[ergonomicmike]

After the fact, I checked my city's water report. It says iron ranges from ND to 40 ppb.

I am assuming that that is essentially no iron.

 

[Bannerman]

(But city water here. Very clean.)

City water supplies are chlorinated, so there will be no ferrous iron for a softener to remove.

With no ferrous iron or manganese present, no harm in regenerating every 28-30 days.

A 48K grain capacity softener, signifies it contains 1.5 cubic feet (1.5 ft3) softening resin. Assuming the 7.5 lb salt setting is per ft3 of resin, then the resulting 11.25 lbs of salt consumed, will be capable of regenerating approx. 34,000 grains usable grains Capacity each regen cycle. You didn't state the actual hardness of the incoming water, as knowing that info, will permit the gallons capacity to be easily calculated.

A 2nd Backwash is usually recommended when utilizing a salt setting less than 6 lbs per ft3. When the salt setting is >6 lbs/ft3, then a 2nd BW will offer less benefit and will typically not be utilized. If the 2nd BW time setting is perhaps 5-minutes, then eliminating the 2nd BW cycle, should reduce water consumption by approx 13.5 gallons (5 min X 2.7 GPM - 2.7 GPM DLFC will be appropriate for a 10" diameter softener tank).

And a possible second reason is to re-ionize the media at the bottom of the tank, which sees the brunt of ion exchange.

Actually, the reverse. The hard water, enters at the top of the tank while in 'Service' mode (supplying soft water to fixtures), flowing downward through the resin bed. As such, the capacity of the resin located closest to the top, will become most depleted, and the resin below will become progressively less depleted as less hardness ions will be removed near the bottom of the resin bed.

 

[ergonomicmike]

Tnx @Bannerman. (My replies are delayed, since, as a new member, my replies need approval from a moderator before going live.)

Okay, so that's two experts saying that 30 days between Regen is okay.

I also found another soft water source online that says 30 days is okay, and the max. And that tunneling/channeling isn't an issue at 30 days.

So I'll set it for 30 and trust the Clack to regenerate on demand before that if needed.

Yes, it's a 1.5 cu ft unit.

The 7.5 lbs is the total dose. So I'm at 5 lbs/cu ft, well below your 6 lb/cu ft trigger point for a required 2nd backwash.

Hardness here is 17 grains/gal. The unit calculates it all out for me and using Gary S's conservative settings, the Valve shows approx 1200 gallons after a regen. My calculations suggest 1300. 1200 is close enough for govt work, and on the safe side. (Maybe like Li-Ion batteries, it's best to not discharge all the way to zero?)

The widow uses an average of 40 gallons/day of soft water. (She has a charcoal filter on a separate hard water tap for drinking/cooking.)

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Doesn't Clack recommend the media is supposed to be moved around every 14 days to
keep it from binding together ??
I suppose you could set it at 20 days for the old lady, but their is a point or fine line
where you are only going to squeeze so much blood out of that turnip

 

[Reach4]

Doesn't Clack recommend the media is supposed to be moved around every 14 days to
keep it from binding together ??
I suppose you could set it at 20 days for the old lady, but their is a point or fine line
where you are only going to squeeze so much blood out of that turnip

See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....tions-to-increase-efficiency-clack-ws1.64326/ #3.

I did look at a WS1 manual, and it seems to say the maximum allowed by the settings is 28.

 

[ergonomicmike]

Thanks, all, for your input. (And thanks for the correction about which way the water flows in Service Mode. I should have known that, since the bottom up flow is called a ‘back’wash.)

The Clack allows a max Day Override of 28 days.

I don’t know how to know if the media binds/clumps at the end of 28 days. [Update: The flow of soft water will curtail? Should I time how long it takes to fill a one gallon bottle now and compare it to a fill 28 days later?]

I suppose the safest protocol is to do what I’m currently doing. (Manual backwash at 14 days between Regen.) But it’s more convenient to set the Day Override to 28 days. And since most of you think that there’s no harm waiting 28 days ...

I’ll check the water softness in a few months afterward. Or maybe I’ll be able to hear a difference in the sound of the media tank during backwash if the media is packed?

I also lowered the (timing) Program Code from P13 to P7, which keeps the brine time the same, but lowers the backwash and rinse times a few minutes.

Hmm... lowering those times might no be the right thing to do if I extend the time between Regen. (That is, maybe I will need those long backwashes?)

---------------

For the (public) record, I sent a version of my OP to Clack (snail mailed a letter in early October), presenting the low usage case of the widow and asking about a 14 day mid-point backwash. I also suggested that, if a mid-point backwash was a good idea, then it might be a good selling Feature. (To optionally perform a mid-point backwash without resetting the capacity counter, to save salt and water, as in my OP.) I asked if they offered such a feature in their newer firmware. Or if they didn’t, how much it would cost to modify my firmware/send me a custom EPROM.

No response received.

So, if this is a good idea for low use cases like the widow’s, or vacation homes on city water that don’t need a mindless Regeneration when standing by, then perhaps some enterprising Water Softener manufacturer might want to incorporate this option and Trademark it as a “Salt Extender” feature. I put the idea in the Public Domain.

(I read that Fleck valves are very user customizable. Is it easy to program a mid-point backwash in a Fleck so that the Valve keeps "Water used since Regen" in memory?)

 

[Reach4]

I don’t know how to know if the media binds/clumps at the end of 28 days. [Update: The flow of soft water will curtail? Should I time how long it takes to fill a one gallon bottle now and compare it to a fill 28 days later?]

I expect the gpm to stay the same, but the residual hardness may rise. Use your Hach 5-B test to measure the residual hardness at about day 27.

(I read that Fleck valves are very user customizable. Is it easy to program a mid-point backwash in a Fleck so that the Valve keeps "Water used since Regen" in memory?)

Fleck has that in the diagnostic screens. But so does Clack. See your service manual under Diagnostics.

STEP 3D – Gallons, since last regeneration: This display shows the number of gallons that have
been treated since the last regeneration. This display will equal zero if a water meter is not
installed. Press the NEXT button to go to Step 4D. Press REGEN to return to previous step.

 

[ergonomicmike]

@Reach4 Thx. I wasn't clear about the Fleck. The "problem" with my mid-point manual backwash protocol on the Clack is that the Clack resets the displayed capacity as if a full Regeneration had just been done. (It saw me cycle thru the steps and doesn't know that I didn't do a full Regen proper.) And so, in the short term, it "forgets" the previous 14 days' accrued capacity. And so, if water usage is unusually high during the next 14 days in the second half of my mid-point backwash, the Clack will not know to start a Demand Regen.

I was wondering if the Fleck can be programmed to do a mid-point backwash without resetting the display.

 

[Reach4]

I was wondering if the Fleck can be programmed to do a mid-point backwash without resetting the display.

I am pretty sure that it cannot.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

@Reach4 Thx. I wasn't clear about the Fleck. The "problem" with my mid-point manual backwash protocol on the Clack is that the Clack resets the displayed capacity as if a full Regeneration had just been done. (It saw me cycle thru the steps and doesn't know that I didn't do a full Regen proper.) And so, in the short term, it "forgets" the previous 14 days' accrued capacity. And so, if water usage is unusually high during the next 14 days in the second half of my mid-point backwash, the Clack will not know to start a Demand Regen.

I was wondering if the Fleck can be programmed to do a mid-point backwash without resetting the display.

You are really trying to split hairs here with this clack water softener.....
They are sent out pre programmed for a specific reason and you are attempting
to tweak the unit to save this old lady a 40 pound bag of salt or maybe 2 bags of salt per year....

I think you ought to leave well enough alone and just set the automatic regeneration
at around 20 days and you would be fine... why you want to fool with all the backwashing
settings is beyond me....

remember that no good deed ever goes un-punished

 

[Reach4]

Hardness here is 17 grains/gal. The unit calculates it all out for me and using Gary S's conservative settings, the Valve shows approx 1200 gallons after a regen. My calculations suggest 1300. 1200 is close enough for govt work, and on the safe side. (Maybe like Li-Ion batteries, it's best to not discharge all the way to zero?)

I think the difference is going to be the reserve. I expect the countdown to go to zero, and then not rege until 2AM rolls around.

 

[Bannerman]

The 7.5 lbs is the total dose. So I'm at 5 lbs/cu ft, well below your 6 lb/cu ft trigger point for a required 2nd backwash.

A 5 lb/ft3 salt setting (7.5 lbs total for a 1.5 ft3 softener), is capable of regenerating approx. 28,000 grains useable Capacity each cycle.

If the incoming water does actually contain 17 gpg and if you have programmed the controller to base calculations on 17 gpg, then 28,000 / 17 gpg = 1,647 gallons - Reserve Capacity (likely 40 gallons) = ~1,600 gallons softening capacity per cycle.

While a 5 lb/ft3 salt setting would operate very efficiently at 3,850 grains regenerated per lb of salt, hardness leakage through the resin will be relatively high at ~13 ppm. FYI, 1 gpg = 17.1 ppm hardness, but a titration test could potentially indicate 1 gpg even with only 13.ppm actual hardness.

1,600 gallons / 40 gpd = 40-days between regen cycles, so even with utilizing a 28-day Override setting, some regenerated capacity will continue to remain unused, and will be re-regenerated again regardless.

There are multiple reasons for Backwashing including:
- to reclassify the resin within the tank which will eliminate channeling which can occur when water follows the same path through the media over an extended time period
- to eliminate sediment and debris that accumulated in the resin bed
- to eliminate fractured and worn resin granules which otherwise, could restrict flow through the resin bed
- to lift and expand the resin bed which results in increased spacing between the resin granules which will permit increased surface contact with the slow moving brine during the Brine cycle.
- a 2nd BW is often utilized directly following a low salt dose Brine cycle, to re-reclassify the resin within the tank, so as to redistribute the most regenerated granules from the top of the tank, throughout the entire tank.

A few concerns with Backwashing mid-cycle:

Because Backwashing expands the spaces between granules, there will be greater potential for hard water to flow through the enlarged spaces between granules, resulting less contact with the resin and higher hardness leakage passing through the resin bed.

In addition, because Backwashing causes the incoming raw, hard water to flow in reverse from the bottom of the tank, upwards through the expanded resin bed, the Service flow directly following the mid-cycle backwash, will result in hard water initially flowing to fixtures, since the water at the bottom of the tank will not have passed through the resin bed so little hardness if any will have been removed.

The purpose for the Rapid Rinse cycle is to recompact the expanded resin bed, thereby reducing the spaces between granules to reduce hardness leakage. The additional RR benefit, is to eliminate the hard, untreated water from the bottom of the tank, before Service flow is restored.

Recommend simply programming the DO for a maximum 28-days and enable the 2nd BW cycle because of the low salt setting. Although there will likely continue to be some capacity remaining at 28-days, you may accept that you have made provisions to ensure efficient operation while continuing to obtain reasonable quality soft water, while also continuing to ensure regeneration will occur at the minimum recommended frequency.

There is no concern with a 1X monthly regeneration frequency. In some parts of the country, it is common for softeners to be supplied as a subscription service, so instead, only a resin tank will be connected to the homes plumbing system. Each resin tank will be exchanged with an alternate resin tank that was regenerated off-site at a central facility. Those exchange tanks are typically sized to provide 30-days of softening capacity before needing to be exchanged.

 

[ergonomicmike]

Thank you all for your input and insights.

There's a lot more science to water softening than I knew. I'm humbled.

So, I will experiment with a 28 Day Override for a few months and use my Hatch kit to test whether this protocol works for the widow's use case. If the water is more than 1 grain at the end of the test, then I'll try 21 days.

To tie up loose ends, yes, I realized that performing manual backwash moved hard water into the tank. So I let it rinse after I backwashed it.

I will return the Program back to P13, since with the 28 day protocol I will probably need more backwash and rinse time to clear 2x debris. (I wonder if one can put a screen/strainer on the discharge tube to get a feel for how much debris has accumulated? Or is this debris at the molecular level?) I'm still ahead even using P13, since I will be backwashing only once a month. (Instead of twice.)

@Master Plumber Mark 40 pound (and lately Costco's 50 pound) bags of salt are impossible for old ladies to haul around. And are becoming harder for this old man. Anything to save hauling a bag or two is a win. Besides, engineers delight in optimizing systems. (I'm not a Greenie. But I see no reason to dump more salt into the earth than necessary.)

Are the salt calculations above (7.5 lbs total = appox. 28,000 grains) predicated on 100% efficiency? (I will plan to bring this up later in a new post.) Gary S told me to set the 48k unit to 25k, with a total salt dose of 8 lbs. If @Bannerman 's calculations above are based on best case 100% efficiency, then it appears that Gary S was assuming 85% -ish efficiency for the media. (And/or allowing for aging media at End Of Life.)

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Thank you all for your input and insights.

There's a lot more science to water softening than I knew. I'm humbled.

So, I will experiment with a 28 Day Override for a few months and use my Hatch kit to test whether this protocol works for the widow's use case. If the water is more than 1 grain at the end of the test, then I'll try 21 days.

To tie up loose ends, yes, I realized that performing manual backwash moved hard water into the tank. So I let it rinse after I backwashed it.

I will return the Program back to P13, since with the 28 day protocol I will probably need more backwash and rinse time to clear 2x debris. (I wonder if one can put a screen/strainer on the discharge tube to get a feel for how much debris has accumulated? Or is this debris at the molecular level?) I'm still ahead even using P13, since I will be backwashing only once a month. (Instead of twice.)

@Master Plumber Mark 40 pound (and lately Costco's 50 pound) bags of salt are impossible for old ladies to haul around. And are becoming harder for this old man. Anything to save hauling a bag or two is a win. Besides, engineers delight in optimizing systems. (I'm not a Greenie. But I see no reason to dump more salt into the earth than necessary.)

Are the salt calculations above (7.5 lbs total = appox. 28,000 grains) predicated on 100% efficiency? (I will plan to bring this up later in a new post.) Gary S told me to set the 48k unit to 25k, with a total salt dose of 8 lbs. If @Bannerman 's calculations above are based on best case 100% efficiency, then it appears that Gary S was assuming 85% -ish efficiency for the media. (And/or allowing for aging media at End Of Life.)

Their is only so much blood you are gonna squeeze out of a turnip...... tweak it all you wish
if it makes you feel like you are doing a good deed.
go ahead and knock yourself out...

also they do make 25 lb bags of salt for older
folks to handle....

 

[ergonomicmike]

As a piece of trivia, the Day Override on the Clack firmware on my valve also allows for "Off."

 

[Reach4]

also they do make 25 lb bags of salt for older
folks to handle....

So much more expensive tho.

Sams used to carry 25 pound Morton blocks with a reasonable per-pound premium. Not only did they stop carrying that, I see other stores that list that show out of stock.

Morton offered their Waves, and those were discontinued.

WAVES - Morton Salt

www.mortonsalt.com

I guess the frugal weaker person could have the 40 pound bags delivered, and break open the bags on the spot to fill smaller bags for carrying down to the basement.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

So much more expensive tho.

Sams used to carry 25 pound Morton blocks with a reasonable per-pound premium. Not only did they stop carrying that, I see other stores that list that show out of stock.

Morton offered their Waves, and those were discontinued.

WAVES - Morton Salt

www.mortonsalt.com

I guess the frugal weaker person could have the 40 pound bags delivered, and break open the bags on the spot to fill smaller bags for carrying down to the basement.

So Maybe I am spoiled...??
I guess that I am grateful that I make a pretty good living and really cannot fathom
worrying or going to all the trouble to be this thrifty and frugal to fret over one or two 40lb bags of salt per year...

At our office we throw away scrap water heaters into the alley and scrappers show up within a few
minutes to pick up the units which might bring them maybe 6 dollars for hauling them to a
junk yard ...........I find that 6 bucks each is not worth my time or gas to collect them and store them
and spend the day dragging them to the junk yard...

I throw this junk out and people come by to somehow scrape a living off the shit we dont deem
worthy of our time....... I guess thanks to me they are able to buy their drugs or booze for the weekend

Yes, I am like a River to my People....lol