High-Rise Building New Hot Water Heater Specs

[Steve20A]

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Terry Love Plumbing World,

I live in a high-rise condo in southwest Florida. We have a rule that requires replacement of high-risk plumbing components at periodic intervals. When the rule was last updated, in 2015, 80-gallon hot water heaters manufactured at that time did not meet the requirements of Florida energy efficiency regulations, so our rule called for replacement water heaters to be 55-gallon units. Forward space to 2020 and 80-gallon units now do meet the energy efficiency requirements, so we are updating the rules. It seemed like a good time to look at other requirements.

I “volunteered” to gather information, so I have some questions to put before the experts on this forum (where I got exceptionally useful advice about Toto toilets a few years ago). I’m not looking for legal advice or guarantees, just solid opinion. Here goes:

General rule:

The rule calls for water heaters to be inspected at warranty expiration and annually thereafter, and to be replaced at the ten-year mark.

1. Specific rule:

The rule calls for replacement hot water heater to have a minimum of 8-year warranty.

Question 1: is there any sense in requiring a unit with a warranty of any specific number of years? Are 8-year warranty heaters really that much less likely to leak than 5-year warranty units?

Question 2: Should we, instead, require inspection every year, regardless of warranty?

Question 3: How do you handle a “lifetime warranty” unit? Other than saving the owner the cost of a new unit, is the anything that much better with a lifetime unit? Should they be replaced every ten years or…?​

2. Specific Rule:

The rule states that new, high efficiency units utilize electrodes that may be of metals dissimilar to the copper pipes they are connected to. Therefore, dielectric unions must be used on both the inlet and exit piping of the water heater.

Question 4: Is this true and does this make sense? Are dielectric unions generally called for when installing water heaters?​

3. Specific rule:

Background: In order to supply 50 psi to the top floors of the building, water pumps create a supply pressure of over 100 psi, which is then reduced to 50 psi at each apartment via a Pressure Reducing Valve. Apparently, here in southwest Florida, the water is such that significant corrosion and debris accumulation occurs in plumbing equipment, including PRVs.

The rule requires that the PRV be replaced when the hot water heater is replaced. [Right or wrong, there is no serious argument in the building about this.]

But the rule further requires that when the PRV is replaced, a pressure gauge be installed on the apartment side of the PRV to monitor pressure.

Question 5: Our local plumber, whom we trust, says that pressure gauges are not necessary and that we will have more issues with leaky gauges than problems uncovered by the gauges. I think this is one of those situations that is not right or wrong, but will be resolved by “weight of evidence/opinion.” What do you think? Should we mandate installation of tees to which a pressure gauge can be easily attached when required?​

General question (#6): In several places, the rule requires the use of a brand name piece of equipment or the equivalent. Some of the brand name parts listed are obsolete at this point. Is there a better way to present the requirement than to quote a brand name item? Would it be sufficient to say “any part that meets Florida code” could be used? Are there grades of plumbing parts and supplies - could we say “use grade 3 parts?”


I know this was a lot to read, but I figured with Covid-19 and requirements for staying home, some of you might find the exercise enjoyable. I thank you all for any input you might provide.

Steve20A (Toto installer extraordinaire, at least in my own bathroom - 2 units, so far)

 

[Jadnashua]

1. On some WH, you can extend the factory warranty by some number of years...the warranty is an insurance policy, often the tank itself is identical. Sometimes, they'll put a higher quality drain valve, and maybe an extra or larger anode rod, but on those with just paying extra, it's literally just a piece of paper that gets you a longer warranty.
2. An inspection may or may not tell you when the tank is going to fail, so forcing it annually, may not buy you much of anything except costs and paperwork.
3. A lifetime warranty tends to either have a stainless steel tank, or one made of plastics, so, they can't rust. It still makes sense to inspect them, as there are other potential leak points and safety devices that should be checked.
4. Nobody makes heating elements made of copper, so while true they are dissimilar, a dielectric union still may be a useful item. Note, if your area allows flexible hoses rather than requiring a hard connection, the rubber gasket in those performs essentially the same function. Some installers throw the dielectric unions away, depending on how they're installing the tank.
5. When you have a PRV installed, you create a closed system, and that also requires an expansion tank. SO, if one of those is not required, it should be part of the install. A pressure gauge is a fairly robust device, and if replaced with the PRV, I wouldn't expect that to be a point of failure. A gauge would tell you if your ET was failing, or the PRV was. Plumbing code calls for the pressure to not exceed 80-psi, so if they're supplying 100, yes, you need a working PRV, and a PRV requires an ET. Heating water, especially an 80-gallon one, will otherwise always be leaking somewhere to relieve that pressure during operation.
6. The certification process is binary...it either passes or it doesn't...there is no 'grade' on things like fittings or hoses, or valves. Yes, some are more robust than others, but specifying a particular brand and model is likely to quickly get quite cumbersome and out of date.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Steve20A]

@jadnashua - thank you for your comments. I appreciate the time you took to respond.

 

[Reach4]

Forward space to 2020 and 80-gallon units now do meet the energy efficiency requirements, so we are updating the rules. It seemed like a good time to look at other requirements.

Electric WHs? If so, "hybrid" WHs are much more efficient. They need a drain for condensate, but they dehumidify as a side effect.

There are WHs with stainless steel or special plastic tanks. The Rheem Marathon water heater comes to mind. That should be immune to corrosion. I am not a pro.

 

[Steve20A]

@Reach4 Thank you for your comments.

Although Florida is a good climate for extracting heat from surrounding air, because this is a high-rise and infrastructure is very hard to change, we discovered that the cost of getting that warm air into individual apartments makes the cost of hybrid technology beyond our reach.

Our options appear to be standard electric water heaters or tankless water heaters. And tankless is not looking good due to the same infrastructure change costs that would be required to add electric capacity to each apartment. We all have 200 amp service, but run everything on electricity - A/C (which, as you might suspect, is on almost all the time), ovens, stove-tops, washers and driers, TV and computers. lights - everything.

So I think we will have to stick with standard electric and require the best of breed parts and processes to make things last.

Thanks, again.

 

[Jadnashua]

A hybrid WH is essentially a heat pump...it takes heat out of the air and puts it into the water...you do not need to bring additional hot air into the area, but the location where the tank is, does need some certain volume of air it can exchange with the rest of the unit. You could think of it like a dehumidifier that moves the heat into the water...no extra 'heat' to the room required. You might add a little heating requirement in those rare times when you need heat in the units versus a/c, but the unit will have a little heat loss through the insulation, so the net result will be small. They do make some noise, but it's more like a refrigerator than a window a/c unit. They aren't all created equal.

 

[Steve20A]

A hybrid WH is essentially a heat pump...it takes heat out of the air and puts it into the water...you do not need to bring additional hot air into the area, but the location where the tank is, does need some certain volume of air it can exchange with the rest of the unit.

Yes, we have looked at that. The analysis shows that we do not have a sufficient volume of air entering the HVAC closets and the air that does enter is chilled (by the building A/C equipment, not the apartment A/C equipment). It might be that, in the future, when hybrid units are more suitably designed for high-rise apartment buildings, and high-rise buildings are more suitably designed for hybrid units, that hybrid becomes an option, but not today, in our building.

Thanks, again, for your thoughts.

 

[Reach4]

So I think we will have to stick with standard electric and require the best of breed parts and processes to make things last.

Click Inbox above.

 

[Steve20A]

Click Inbox above.

Thank you. I appreciate that link. I am not very familiar with Rheem and will see what they offer.

But, finding water heaters that work is not the biggest issue. I am trying to update our specifications, so that individual apartment owners can have guidance to buy the best unit for their requirements while, at the same time, not creating problems for the building with leaks, corrosion, part failures, etc. over the life of the unit. Everything people say on this forum helps me do that.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Reach4]

Try searching for marathon using the search box above.

 

[Fitter30]

Fiberglass tank water heater
https://www.rheem.com/innovations/innovation_residential/marathon/

 

[Sylvan]

"4. Nobody makes heating elements made of copper, so while true they are dissimilar, a dielectric union still may be a useful item. Note, if your area allows flexible hoses rather than requiring a hard connection, the rubber gasket in those performs essentially the same function. Some installers throw the dielectric unions away, depending on how they're installing the tank."

I do not know of anyone in their right mind who would "throw away" a dielectric union

What they may opt to do is use a dielectric nipple to keep the warranty of the tank in check

 

[Fitter30]

Water alarm in every mechanical closet battery operated sound like a smoke detector.
https://www.amazon.com/Govee-Detect...Alarms&qid=1599506022&sr=8-4&ts_id=7491105011

 

[Jadnashua]

www.wagsvalve.com will shut off the water into a WH once it starts to leak...no power or batteries involved, simple tech like the inflator of a life saving vest on an airplane to trigger it. Free insurance policy against damage if installed by a licensed plumber.

 

[Steve20A]

Water alarm in every mechanical closet battery operated sound like a smoke detector.

I agree. I first used Stitch from Monoprice, but they proved to be unreliable (floating quietly under the leaking dishwasher). I found Govee, as you recommend. They are very good. I like the app and the messages that are delivered to my phone, when they trigger. (Installation took a bit of hunting for better directions. You can find good guides on the web.) Also, they detect water below, as you would expect, and from above (if the detector happens to be placed in the water drop path) before it puddles. I have them set up at the hot water heater, the dishwasher, the washing machine and two A/C units.

(I also bought a couple of Govee branded outlets and now I can switch on my desk lights by saying, "Alexa - desk light on." I can also control them with Google Assistant.)

 

[Steve20A]

www.wagsvalve.com will shut off the water into a WH once it starts to leak...no power or batteries involved, simple tech like the inflator of a life saving vest on an airplane to trigger it. Free insurance policy against damage if installed by a licensed plumber.

I hadn't heard of this device. I like the way it is designed to work mechanically. It would be perfect if it could be reset. Single use is kind of a bummer. Maybe a cartridge that could be replaced by the home owner. (Kind of like Saw-Stop, if you are familiar with that technology.) On the other hand, if your water heater is leaking, this device is the smallest part of your repairs.

 

[Jadnashua]

Being able to be reset would likely make it less reliable. The 'disk' literally dissolves, which releases the spring-loaded valve to shut off the water.

 

[Steve20A]

I read all the links that people have supplied, so this is a general question.

We currently require water heaters to be replaced every 10 years. This rule was probably developed before plastic tanks were commonly available. Can anyone give me a feel for how much longer a plastic tank ( the type used in the Marathon, for example) might last compared to a regular tank? Gut feel. I know every install is different.

If someone wanted to install a "lifetime warranty" unit (stainless or plastic), might we be OK allowing an owner to keep a unit 15 years instead of 10?

Thanks.

 

[Jadnashua]

While a plastic or SS tank should not rust, that doesn't mean they cannot have some other issue that damages them. For example, I had a SS indirect tank (heated by a boiler) that leaked. It was replaced under warranty, but I had to pay for the labor. It was a slow weep, and I caught it early, so there was no damage to surrounding areas. THat's a hassle with having one in a closet that may not be opened often...mine was along the path I usually take to go outside, so I saw it. If your hot water suddenly stops, that's a big incentive to figure out why which is why the WAGS valve has merit. An alarm, should someone be away for the day or weekend, or longer, won't do anything to prevent flooding. There are automatic shutoff valves that can be triggered by leaks, but all of the others also require either batteries or prime power to operate. While power outages in a big city may not be common, they can occur. I had a stroke in January as I was starting to take off in my airplane...no history of that problem. Fortunately, I survived, but the plane was trashed. Will never be quite the same. IOW, shit happens and you do the best you can to prevent catastrophic results. Lots of water can be catastrophic.

A failed PRV could exert excess pressure to the tank as can a failed expansion tank. That's why a pressure gauge isn't a bad idea. When those things fail, they often do it gradually, so you may not notice that the pressure has risen beyond the plumbing code's limits. Many problems can be circumvented from being catastrophic IF people do some preventive measures which includes actually looking at things. Most people take no notice of an appliance until it fails to operate. 10-years may be too long, depending on what other mitigation efforts are done.

If the units have washing machines, especially if people don't turn the supplies off in between uses, a failed supply hose can flood things dramatically if not caught prior to it running for long. There are lots of 'what if' situations, and it's difficult to overcome them all. A new tank could fail in short order...doesn't happen all that often, but it's still a possibility. FWIW, 10-years is a long time for a WH, and some would consider that operating on borrowed time. An electric one tends to last longer than a gas-fired one, and depending on use and the water quality, can often last much longer than that 10-years, but there's a reason why most of them have a 6-8 year warranty...that's the comfort level of the industry on where they expect them to last without costing a lot of money in warranty work.

 

[Reach4]

We currently require water heaters to be replaced every 10 years. This rule was probably developed before plastic tanks were commonly available. Can anyone give me a feel for how much longer a plastic tank ( the type used in the Marathon, for example) might last compared to a regular tank? Gut feel. I know every install is different.

For your investigation, also consider https://www.htproducts.com/everlast-residential-water-heater.html . Stainless steel tanks. Resistance electric. They should not be subject to age-related leak failure, I would not think. Not a big as the ones you usually use, but still plenty for most people.

Consider this: Suppose you permit those for 15 years. After maybe 14 years, you could consider extending the license for another 5 or 10 years if there is no reason to expect age-related leaks. How about a consortium of similar condo groups. If there has been no leak failure, in 14 years, extend.