Cycle Stop Valve voided my well pump warranty???

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by White Shadow, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. shane21

    shane21 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Location:
    Ohio
    Cary,

    I guess I just don't understand why you like to use the phrase "when properly installed" when discussing CSV systems and somehow that trumps the opposing point of view, yet when I use the same phrase you just gloss over it. When a VFD is installed correctly it won't drop below the minimum Hz required for proper motor operation. Every VFD I use of allows you to program the minimum Hz setting so the issue of thrust bearing in the motor is a near non factor.

    As for the bladder failure argument, of course a CSV is better at saving the motor than having standard pump and pressure tank setup, my point was that a VFD is even BETTER at saving a motor than a CSV when the pressure tank bladder fails - properly programed VFD soft starts do extend motor life.

    I have never said the CSV is a bad product, hell I install CSV systems, I just said it's not accurate for you to state the CSV system is better than a VFD system in most applications. As I stated in post #117, back pressure caused by a CSV mounted in the house is an issue in NE Ohio, where we are located, because so many older systems did use 100 PSI, or even 80 PSI water line between the well and house. This is a case where a CSV is not a good fit, unless I use the less than reliable plastic version CSV125 valve in the well, and a VFD system can often be installed for the same price or sometimes less than a CSV system. Again, not every CSV system can be installed cheaper than a VFD system and the price difference is continually shrinking as VFD systems become more popular. I can and would gladly show you many scenarios where the total installed price of a CSV system is within 10% of a VFD system and also show you scenarios where a CSV system installed is actually more expensive than a VFD system (unless we are using the less than reliable plastic CSV125 valve installed in the well).

    Lastly, I am one of the pump installers that understands EXACTLY how the affinity laws apply to centrifugal curved vane impellers, how a properly functioning CSV doesn't hurt the pump, and why CSV systems are a good fit for a lot of applications - I have been consistent in my position on this since I first used a CSV over 20 years ago. I just have an objection to you saying that VFD systems are rarely a better option for most water well applications when that is flat out not true.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Even though some VFD's let you set a minimum hertz, getting to 30 HZ using IGBT's in a VFD will still be slower than when starting across the line. But you don't have to worry about that with the SQ/SQE as they have oil lube ball bearings, not a Kingsbury. The ball bearings don't care about minimum speed. But ball bearings have friction and a limited life span compared to a Kingsbury which is completely friction-less above 50% speed.

    You have three problems in your area that would keep me from recommending a CSV. However, by eliminating any one of those three problems the CSV would be a good fit in your area. If you didn't have high iron the CSV could be installed in the well where the old 80# pipe and the 5' frost level would not be a problem. If your frost line wasn't 5' deep, you could put a CSV in a valve box, then the high iron and 80# pipe would not be an issue. Then if you have good pipe underground, adding a CSV in the house would work, and the 5' frost line and high iron would not be a problem. But with all three of those problems and no way to fix any one of them, the CSV is not a good choice. Just like it is not a good choice for an 800'-1000' deep well or when pumping solids or peanut butter.

    However, unless they just want constant pressure, I wouldn't recommend a VFD in that area either. With no outside irrigation or open loop heat pump, the only reason to use a VFD or a CSV is to get constant pressure for showers and tankless water heaters. But pumps in that area are so lightly used, that most pressure tank only systems last 20-30 years. While there are many CSV systems that have also lasted that long, VFD systems will not.

    But if a customer wants constant pressure and you have all three of those problems, a VFD would be the next best option in your area. Fortunately, your area is a very small part of the overall pump market. We sell CSV's from Florida to California and to many other countries where they don't have all three of those problems. So, I still hold by my statement that a VFD is rarely a better fit than a CSV for a regular water pump application.

    You can't change the high iron in the wells. You can't do anything about the 5' frost line. But if the underground line from the well to the house is good pipe, a CSV is still a good fit in your area.

    We sell a lot of CSV's to replace VFD's when they give problems. I have installers who like to install VFD's and only use CSV's on the systems where VFD's give them problems. If they just started with a CSV they wouldn't have the problems in the first place.

    I appreciate you using CSV's, don't want to be argumentative, and I certainly see your point. But the only reason a VFD is better in your area than a CSV is because some houses have old 80-100# pipe underground, not because there is anything wrong with the way a CSV works.
     
  3. shane21

    shane21 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Location:
    Ohio
    Cary,

    One thing I can't argue is that you are a true salesman and your sales speak is pretty damn good! Some of your facts and opinions leave a bit to be desired but the CSV is your product so I understand why you tend to see it with at least slightly rose colored glasses. Hell, any of us who have kids can relate to your position on this when we have to try to look objectively at a situation and realize our kid isn't always the best egg in the group - it just isn't very easy to acknowledge that.

    I agree that there is no real need to further debate this as you are set in your ways and I'm sure you probably think the same of me. I suppose we can just agree to disagree on this issue but I do hope discourse like this will at least open the eyes of consumers and have them do research and ask questions until they understand the issue well enough to make an informed decision. We have all seen the studies that a disgruntled consumer is, by some accounts, 100 times more likely to post his/her displeasure with a product on a forum than another consumer who is very happy with the same product. Because of this I do sincerely hope that people who stumble across forums like this don't demonize a product because a forum poster had trouble but rather realize that both CSV and VFD systems really are a good fit for most well pump applications and the small details really do make the decision subjective for each and every homeowner!
     
  4. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Well I guess we will have to disagree on somethings, as I believe it is those who promote VFD's who are looking through rose colored glasses. VFD's have certainly got a lot better. But they still have a lot of the problems they had thirty years ago when I stopped using them.

    I do agree people should educate themselves before they make a decision. That is why I am on these forums, and is how I sell Cycle Stop Valves. When given all the information, people nearly always choose the CSV. Even when they don't, I get a call a few years later telling me they should have.

    Interesting that you say disgruntled customers are more likely to post. I think you will find the same three people on the entire Internet who post anything negative about the CSV, and they have no idea what they are talking about. However, all I have to do to perk up is to read some of my recent reviews. I don't filter reviews. If there were any bad ones, they would be on the top of the list. I have hundreds of five star reviews and no bad ones at all. Our reviews are so good people wouldn't believe them if everyone didn't come with a picture. Here is the list of reviews.
    https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

    And here is just one I picked at random.

    Juergen
    Changed one SubDrive 75 pump and two Control boxes over 12 years. Was fed up with the cost of SubDrive components (Control boxes $795-1295, $2200+ system), and the proprietary nature of the components. Suffered from lower than expected performance and well documented susceptibility to power fluctuations. Was unable to find replacement pump for this third go-round. Found the CSV1A Kit which allows use of standard well components coupled with the CSV. I replicated my Constant Pressure Manifold and added the CSV components to make up a system for my application. My well is 186FT deep, and 600ft from the house. Was able to source a 3-wire 1.5hp pump and the team rigged my configuration to maintain 60psi (10gal tank). We have incredible improvements in sustained pressure when using exterior garden hoses and use of multiple sources simultaneously (dishwasher, shower, hose etc).


    Sub Drive replaced.jpeg
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Oh heck. Just posting one more review. I can show lots of positive stuff about CSV's, but I will still have to fight the negativity.


    Bobalouie
    I wanted to sorta " clean up" the well plumbing in our basement, and eliminate all galvanized fittings. This is a two inch well, with a Flint & Walling pump that's older than dirt, but works well. I purchased the cycle stop valve kit, and had custom stainless steel flex lines ( 3/4 inch ) from the pump to the " kit", and onto the softener, and into the house system. Whenever any water is used, the " little" tank emptys, and off the pump goes. It keeps the pressure right at 50 psig, as long as the water is being used. After flow is stopped,the pump continues to run & fill up the " little " pressure tank. ( I'd guess about one gallon or so ) stops the pump, and sits there ready to supply the house system as needed. We really like the performance of this kit. While using something like a shower,the pressure never drops, ( and yes,I watched the thing while a shower was being used, even two youngsters were using both showers, the thing still kept the darn pressure right near the 50 psig ). I'd say that's pretty good. Would I install one again, absolutely...

    Bobalouie before and after.jpg
     
  6. shane21

    shane21 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm sure it is a small number of people who post negatively about CSV systems because, relative to VFD systems, there is a small number of people who own CSV systems - its a simple per capita comparison.

    I can, and have in this thread, posted positive and negative things about both the CSV and VFD systems because both systems have their respective positive and negative attributes. I will continue to sell, install, troubleshoot and repair both systems for anyone who contacts us if and until I see a clearly better option between the two which right now just doesn't exist. Over my 100's of system installations of both types, more VFD than CSV, I can say that when designed and installed properly both systems work well and there is really isn't a much of maintenance cost difference between the two.
     
  7. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Thanks man! I appreciate you! Sure the "per capita" thing means there are now a lot more VFD's than CSV's being used. But that didn't use to be the case. And as you said, unsatisfied customers post a lot more than satisfied customers. The percentage of people who post problems with a VFD is extremely large in contrast to the CSV.

    There are now a lot more VFD's than CSV's because it is all about the Benjamin's, and that also didn't use to be that way. There are 27 BILLION dollars worth of VFD's sold every year, and I don't disagree with most of that. There are lot of good applications for VFD's like piston pumps and air compressors. But the centrifugal impeller or fan is a pretty magical thing all my itself. The second Affinity Law is the only one that matters with a centrifugal pump when maintaining constant pressure. And losing head by the square of the speed means a properly sized pump cannot be slowed down but about 10% and still produce the pressure needed. That greatly limits the effectiveness of a VFD on a centrifugal pump. Since flow is lost by a one to one ratio with the speed, that also means the flow is only reduced by 10%. Closing some faucets or restricting the flow to use less water is still what drops the amps, because the speed cannot be reduced anymore. The amps drop when restricting the flow because of the natural and magical quality of a centrifugal impeller, just like when using a CSV.

    There are so many good uses for VFD's that people think they should be just as useful with a centrifugal pump, but they are not. Yet pump manufacturers and many installers let them think that or even tell them that, just to sell a more expensive product. The high profit and repeat business of a VFD has gotten many honest pump men into seeing dollar signs, and now they do what makes them the most money, not necessarily what is best for the customer. And the fact that the customer is fooled into believing varying the speed saves energy, just makes it an easy sell if they just keep their mouth shut and don't explain the truth.

    The CSV verses VFD debate has been going on for 30 years. 25 years ago they told me the next generation of VFD would solve all the problems of the last version had. They have said that every 18 months since then. And 25 years later they are much closer to making VFD's work as well and be almost as inexpensive as a CSV. But I still believe when there are two or more ways to accomplish a task, the simplest way is always best.

    However, this thread is about pump installers and pump manufacturers telling their customers a CSV will void the warranty, in order to force them into using the more profitable VFD. That is just wrong on so many levels. Thank you for being an honest pump man and stating that a functioning CSV will not damage a pump.
     
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