Cycle Stop Valve voided my well pump warranty???

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by White Shadow, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Guys, I need some help. My well pump crapped out on me last week. This is in a new construction house, just a bit more than two years old. I called the well company that did the original installation (their info was on the pressure tank) and they came out to replace the pump after they determined that the pump did in fact fail.

    The pump was a Goulds 1.5HP well pump. I had a Cycle Stop Valve installed last summer because my newly installed irrigation system was causing the pump and pressure tank to cycle on/off every 60 seconds when the irrigation was running. When the well guys saw the Cycle Stop Valve, they told me that the Goulds well pump warranty is voided and that I'd have to pay for the replacement pump. Is that correct? I can't find anything online that says my well pump warranty is void due to a Cycle Stop Valve being installed.

    Can anyone offer some advice on this?
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Absolutely not! That is a lie. I wish it were true, as I would like to own a big pump company like Goulds. Disallowing a warranty for using a Cycle Stop Valve, which is good for pumps, when there are a multitude of other control devices out there that actually shorten the life of pumps, would have a lot of possible legal implications.

    The push back we get from pump manufacturers and some installers is unbelievable. It is obvious that some of them will do or say anything to keep homeowners from making their pump systems last longer and cost less by using a Cycle Stop Valve. Pump manufacturers are careful not to mention a Cycle Stop Valve in their printed warranty. However, they have no problem saying bad things about a CSV, as long as they are not being recorded.

    Your pump crapped out because it either had a real manufacturing defect, or you didn't get a CSV installed soon enough. There is nothing a CSV can do about the damage from cycling that happened BEFORE the CSV was installed. But I can assure you the CSV was not the reason for the pump to fail, as there has never been a single pump failure that can be attributed to a CSV. Just the opposite is true. The CSV eliminates the cycling that causes pumps to fail prematurely.

    If you can get the pump company to put in writing that the warranty is void because of a CSV, I will gladly pay the entire bill for you. I have always said I would warranty the pump personally if a CSV ever caused a single failure. In over 25 years that has never happened. You would be better off contacting a pump company that actually knows what they are doing and/or talking about. But those are hard to find these days. You are doing the best you can to educate yourself on these forums, as you already know more than your local "professionals".
     
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  4. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

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    Jul 13, 2018
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    New Jersey
    I didn't get any warranty booklet or any other information on the Goulds pump that failed, nor the Goulds pump that they used as a replacement. The guys from the well company insist that a Cycle Stop Valve does void the pump warranty, so they charged me the full price for the replacement pump. How can I prove that installing a Cycle Stop Valve doesn't void the pump warranty? I can't find anything online to support that one way or the other.

    And BTW, they removed my Cycle Stop Valve telling me that the newly installed pump warranty would be voided again if they left it in place.
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Oh this is going to be fun. Tell them you want the old pump back that they didn't warranty. Then tell them you want to see in writing where is says Goulds will not warranty a pump using a CSV. You can call me directly if you want some help. These guys need to refund all your money, and hope you don't decide to go after their state license, which is what I would do. All you have to do is make a call to the water well/pump installer licensing board, and they will take care of this for you.

    I am sorry so many of you have to deal with these unscrupulous pump installers. They give all pump guys a bad reputation. There are some good pump guys still out there, but these guys are certainly not.

    Just give me the name of the company you are dealing with, and I will call Goulds and get this straightened out for you. But you will need the old pump they didn't warranty for me to see what the real cause of failure was. Most likely it was installer error, as these guys obviously don't know what they are doing.

    I have been waiting 25 years for someone to write this stuff down to make an example out of. A voice recording of them saying they will not warranty the pump would be as good as getting it in writing, as I have never been able to get anyone to write it down. Go figure?
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  6. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Here is the disclaimer on the Goulds warranty for you. Notice no mention of CSV or any other control device.


    Any parts repaired or replaced by Seller under the Warranty are warranted only for the
    balance of the warranty period on the parts that were repaired or replaced.
    The Warranty is conditioned on Buyer giving written notice to Seller of any
    defects in material or workmanship of warranted goods within ten (10) days of
    the date when any defects are first manifest. Seller shall have no warranty
    obligations to Buyer with respect to any product or parts of a product that: (a)
    have been repaired by third parties other than Seller or without Seller’s written
    approval; (b) have been subject to misuse, misapplication, neglect, alteration,
    accident, or physical damage; (c) have been used in a manner contrary to
    Seller’s instructions for installation, operation and maintenance; (d) have been
    damaged from ordinary wear and tear, corrosion, or chemical attack; (e) have
    been damaged due to abnormal conditions, vibration, failure to properly
    prime, or operation without flow; (f) have been damaged due to a defective
    power supply or improper electrical protection; or (g) have been damaged
    resulting from the use of accessory equipment not sold by Seller or not
    approved by Seller in connection with products supplied by Seller hereunder.
    In any case of products not manufactured by Seller, there is no warranty from
    Seller; however, Seller will extend to Buyer any warranty received from
    Seller’s supplier of such products.


    You can download the complete zip file here.
    http://goulds.com/literature-library/#documentType/warranty_terms
     
  7. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Occupation:
    Mud rotary well driller, pump installer
    Location:
    Richmond, VA

    I expect they may try to use clause G from the above text......I'm not saying they are right or that I agree but I think that's what they'll say. Get the pump back by all means, or at very least find out if it was the pump or motor and what model it was. Goulds came out with a line called CS pumps not all that long ago (2-3 years) and they have had a lot of problems. It has a discharge head that is crimped instead of threaded....and they were having the discharge head blow off right at the crimp. I'm not sure if the metal was too thin or they crimped it too much, but it is a known problem. I had a couple blow off before I stopped using them...now the backpressure from a CSV MIGHT aggravate this problem, but it's definitely a manufacturing problem. I started using Franklin Series V pumps, which also have a crimped head, with CSV, and haven't had even one failure in over 2 years.
     
  8. ThirdGenPump

    ThirdGenPump In the Trades

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Location:
    MA
    I've never had an issue warrantying a Goulds pump. I send them back to the distributor and they give me a new pump, if it's within date code they don't even ask me questions. If it's outside of date code they want a copy of the invoice it was installed on.(so they know it was installed within the 5 year warranty) 'Did you use a CSV has never been a question I've been asked' nor have I had an issue using a Goulds pump with a CSV.

    Sounds like a good deal for your pump company, tell you you need to pay for a new pump, take your old pump and exchange it for a new one to sell to the next guy.

    I'd look up your local Goulds distributors and ask them if CSV's void warranties. If they say no, your pump guy is double dipping on your dime.

    Goulds does not cover labor under warranty, so you should be paying that according to the companies terms.
     
    VAWellDriller likes this.
  9. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Occupation:
    Mud rotary well driller, pump installer
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I've never had them ask any questions on warranty pump either.....sometimes they just ask for date code or s/n and dont even want the pump back.
     
  10. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    If you can help me with this, I'd really appreciate it. I will give you the name and phone number of the Well Company via private messages if this forum supports private messaging. I'd rather not expose them on a public forum.

    If I call them and tell them that I want my old pump back, I'm sure they'll say that they scrapped it already (the pump failure happened a week ago) and I'll be out of luck.

    A bit more information about my pump failure. When I noticed my water pressure drop to zero, I went down to the utility room and checked the gauge on the pressure tank. Sure enough, it was zero. Then I check the breaker and it was tripped. I reset the breaker and the pump didn't come on, but the breaker didn't trip again either. It just seemed totally dead. When the well guys pulled the pump up, they said it was completely burnt up. It has been more than a week since the pump failure and I can still smell that burnt electrical smell in the water right out of the tap. So I'm not sure about the pump, but it seems like it was a complete meltdown.

    If the guys took my old pump and warrantied it and then charged me full price for a new pump, I'm getting screwed big time. But there's going to be no way for me to prove that at this point. Still though, now I have a new pump without the CSV on it because they say it will void the warranty on my new pump.
     
  11. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

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    Jul 13, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    So here's what I did so far---I called Goulds and asked to speak to someone about pump warranties. After a long conversation, they told me that they don't actually provide warranties for their pumps. They said that their distrubutors warranty the pumps. So I asked for some local distributors and they gave me two contacts. The first one told me that they don't deal with residential pumps, just commercial applications. The second one told me that they've never heard of a pump warranty being void because of a CSV being installed, but they also weren't able to discuss warranty details with me because I'm a homeowner. They told me that I need to talk to the well pump installer. I explained that they were guys who were telling me that I had to pay for a new pump because the pump warranty was void and that I didn't know if that's true or not. So I ended up just going around in circles.
     
  12. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I'll bet that is exactly what happened. Like everybody said above, their supply house will not even ask about a CSV or any other control. If the date codes are within warranty, they will just hand them a brand new pump. They may have even gotten two new pumps for free, which is how the supply house usually handles not paying them for labor when they have a manufacturing defect like with those CS pumps. Either way, they are having a big Christmas and you are not.

    If they don't have the old pump to give back to you, they didn't scrap it, they swapped it out for a warranty replacement. If they can't produce the old pump, get the name of their supply house and call them. If they know you are going to do this, they may fess up and tell you they got a warranty replacement.

    Sure PM me, call me (806-885-4445), or email me at caustin@cyclestopvalves.com. But don't let them hold you hostage over this, just because you are afraid of angering the only people around that can get your water going. That is called blackmail.
     
  13. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    They will discuss it with me. Just give me the installer and supply house names.
     
  14. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I don't think they can deny a warranty using clause G, as they would have to prove the pump was damaged from the use of accessory equipment. Then it would fall back to clause E, which mentions damage from loss of prime or operation without sufficient flow. Neither of these things can be caused by a CSV, as the CSV can never completely close. The CSV always allows for sufficient cooling flow. However, sufficient cooling flow can be the problem if the well is pumped dry, the pump cannot build enough pressure to pass sufficient flow, a check valve fails in the closed position, the well head freezes, or many other things, but not because of the CSV. Even if it fails or is installed incorrectly the CSV cannot cause a lack of flow.

    I see this every day. The well is 100'-300' deep, and pumps are a mystery to homeowners, so the pump guy can really tell you whatever he wants you to think. And good pump guys wonder why nobody trust them or believes what they say? We have the bad apples in our profession like these guys to thank for all the negative attitudes towards pump guys and drillers.
     
  15. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

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    Jul 13, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thanks again, Cary. I did send you all of the information you requested, so it will be great if you can help me figure out how to move forward with this. And I'd love to get that CSV back inline now that I have a new pump installed. It really sucks that I have to deal with dishonest pump guys who are taking advantage of me as a homeowner, especially when I don't have the knowledge or information to protect myself against them. I wish they would've just replaced my failed pump under warranty and not remove my CSV.
     
  16. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
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    The supply house said they or Goulds would never deny a warranty for using a CSV. I left a message with the installer.
     
  17. banjo bud

    banjo bud Member

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    Scheisters.
     
  18. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Active Member

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    Occupation:
    Mud rotary well driller, pump installer
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    White Shadow - Did you ever actually ask for the pump back? I don't know about your state, but here in VA you would easily have some recourse with contractors board...and maybe just a threat of that would get your money back. We can actually get in trouble for working without a contract on a pump replacement if somebody wanted to make a stink. As a licensed contractor we're supposed to have written contract for ANY job performed.....your state may be the same and I doubt you signed anything saying you'd pay for the repairs.

    Valveman---good luck with your fight. I like and use your product and can't argue that it extends the life of everything in the system....and I can't see a downside. BUT I also see that if the pump companies want a way out of a warranty (which the warranty IS completely voluntary on their part) they almost always have one. Very few if any pump curves these days show a 1 gpm flow in the acceptable operation range...and your product takes the pumps down to that flow. Sure it may not cause any damage, but they can always say if they wanted that you operated the pump outside of the recommended range. They don't even have to say the CSV caused damage, they can just say that your didn't operate it the way it was intended and choose not to warrant it. Now I've NEVER had any issue with warranties; and I don't think the pump manufacturer is the problem most of the time. As you've said many times before, the installers are the problem, both being ignorant and crooked as it seems in this case. Maybe they don't know how to size pumps and have so many warranty claims the distributor cut them off on warranties? Who knows?
     
  19. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

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    Jul 13, 2018
    Location:
    New Jersey
    So I don't know what Cary said to my pump guys, but they called me and told me that they were able to get my pump warrantied and they were sending me a check for the full amount that I paid them to replace my pump. That's great news and I appreciate the help. However, they still stands behind their position that a CSV will kill the pump.

    Cary: Jim said that you talked to his mom at the office today. He told me he'll call you tomorrow if he has time. Thanks again for your help.
     
  20. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

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    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Just got your message. Thanks for letting everyone know. I hope he does call me back. I get some of my best customers this way. If he is willing to talk, maybe he will learn something. People can have a "position" or opinion on lots of things. But a Cycle Stop Valve making a pump last longer, not a shorter amount of time, is a fact, not anybodies opinion. His opinion can be that he doesn't like them, and "thinks" they will harm a pump. Opinions can get you into trouble when they go against the facts. I have plenty of facts for him, if he is willing to learn something.

    I don't blame him for thinking those things. I thought the same things 25 years ago, until an Engineer from Franklin Electric explained it to me. Restricting the flow from a pump with a valve sounds like a bad thing. It sounds like it should make the power use go up and the pump work harder. All of that would be true if we were talking about a piston type pump. A centrifugal pump, like all the ones we use, likes to have the flow restricted. A valve makes the amps drop and the pump work easier. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. There is not even an opinion on the amount of flow needed to cool a pump. It is either enough to cool the pump and motor, or it is not. And that is an easy thing to tell by looking at the old pump/motor. The minimum flow through a CSV was set after inspecting thousands of pumps and motors to determine the minimum flow needed, it is not an opinion.


    The centrifugal impeller is a pretty magical thing, as it is completely "counter-intuitive". But "counter-intuitive" means someone has to explain it to you. Even explained as nicely as I can, it is hard to believe because it is not intuitive. I like to see the look on the face of an old pump guy who thinks he knows everything, when he finally sees the light. They either get it, or they don't. They either quickly become my best friend, or they hate me forever. Doesn't seem to be much in between for some reason.

    I am one of those guys who wants everyone to like him. So it really hurts my feelings when someone treats me that way. But I understand why people get angry. No one wants to be corrected, especially about something they thought they knew all about. :)
     
  21. White Shadow

    White Shadow New Member

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    Location:
    New Jersey
    Well, I like you....haha....you helped me out a great deal. Jim seems like a really nice guy. Even if he doesn't call you back, you should definitely try to call him again and make him understand your CSV because he's definitely 100% against them right now.
     
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