Cycle Stop Valve voided my well pump warranty???

[VAWellDriller]

Nice to hear the story has a happy ending.

Valveman, regarding the minimum cooling flow; just to be clear on your position, that 1 gpm flow is for a 4" pump in a 4" sleeve; correct? You still recommend sleeve for 4" pump in a 6" well? The Franklin AIM table on minimum flow (and I know that's for running motors at max amps), is pretty demanding for motors put in pipe any larger than their nominal size.

 

[Valveman]

Floating stack pump ends don't make much heat. About 2/10s of a GPM per 10 stages will keep them cool. Floating stage pumps create friction, and require at least 1 GPM per 10 stages.

It really doesn't take much to wick away the heat from a motor with even a slightly de-rated load. Just dropping 10% to 20% in amps makes a big difference for cooling the motor. The temperature of the water also makes a big difference. Most of the charts, like the AIM manual are done using 86F water temp. I find very few water wells are that warm. With 40F to 70F water, the flow required for cooling decreases dramatically. An example is a 10 GPM floating stage Pentair pump, as they do not decrease in amps when the flow is restricted. While I would not recommend flow down to 1 GPM at 86F without de-rating the motor load, they do not overheat because the water is so cool. I have tested many over 20 years old that show no damage to the motor or thrust bearing.

But de-rating the motor load still makes a big difference. Even the test done by the motor manufactures say de-rating the motor load by as little as 18% drastically cuts the cooing requirement. Then de-rating up to 40% as many pumps will do, is even better. One letter says they tested de-rated motors with absolutely no flow and they worked fine. Here are links to those letters on a 10HP and 30HP I asked for.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0147/4392/files/pumpman_6.pdf?17343003123420964675
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0147/4392/files/pumpman_5.pdf?5463603223447972675

However, I always recommend a shroud or at least flow from below the motor. Like I said if the water is cool and the motor is not drawing full load amps, it doesn't take much to wick the heat away from the motor, so a 4" pump in 6" casing is still fine. Franklin even claims their Super Stainless 2HP and smaller motors do not need a shroud. I was told they shortened up the motor enough that the thrust bearing end was already so close to the pump intake that it didn't need a shroud. So according to that from Franklin, a 4" motor in 24" casing should be fine.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Page #8 of the Aim manual in the link below, shows 5HP and smaller motors only need to be de-rated by about 25% to be able to safely pump 140F water. The flow rate, considering the size of the shroud or well casing would have to be decreased enough to heat the water up to 140F before there would be a problem. The minimum flow in the CSV is designed to allow the water temp coming out of the pump to increase by no more than 10F with a submersible pump/motor. So even though 1 GPM sounds like very little flow, if your water temp is 60F, there is enough always enough flow through a CSV to keep the water from heating to no more than 70F, so you and the motor don't notice or feel any heat.

The question has always been...
If the amps only half to drop by 25% for the pump and motor to safely pump 140F hot water, how low can the flow rate be for a de-rated motor if we are pumping 50F water? My answer is, the flow has to be low enough to increase water temp to 140F. I have tested that to be even less than 2/10s of a GPM. This is why the CSV works with a fudge factor of 5, to never allow less than 1 GPM flow, making sure the pump and motor have plenty of cooling.

Page 8) Hot Water Aplications
http://www.franklinwater.com/media/110562/M1311_60_Hz_AIM_12-14-WEB.pdf

 

[Valveman]

So I don't know what Cary said to my pump guys, but they called me and told me that they were able to get my pump warrantied and they were sending me a check for the full amount that I paid them to replace my pump. That's great news and I appreciate the help. However, they still stands behind their position that a CSV will kill the pump.

Cary: Jim said that you talked to his mom at the office today. He told me he'll call you tomorrow if he has time. Thanks again for your help.

Well I left a couple of messages and am not going to get a call back. This is typical. This pump man already thinks he knows more than everybody else, and is not willing to learn anything new. The main thing I hate about stuff like this, is that he never figured out what caused the actual problem. It could have been just a badly manufactured motor, but now we don't know. If it wasn't just a bad motor, without looking for the real cause of failure and solving the problem, it will most likely happen again.

Did you get your CSV back?

 

[White Shadow]

Well I left a couple of messages and am not going to get a call back. This is typical. This pump man already thinks he knows more than everybody else, and is not willing to learn anything new. The main thing I hate about stuff like this, is that he never figured out what caused the actual problem. It could have been just a badly manufactured motor, but now we don't know. If it wasn't just a bad motor, without looking for the real cause of failure and solving the problem, it will most likely happen again.

Did you get your CSV back?

That's disappointing. I'm obviously not an expert, but I will say that my pump most likely took a beating before it died because of the irrigation system. My irrigation guys have my one acre property set up with 13 zones, each zone has between 6 and 8 sprinkler heads. They had each zone running for 30 minutes, so more than six hour run time in total. And during the hottest months, they had it running two of those cycles per day.

I watched my pressure tank and with the irrigation system running, it basically cycled between 40 psi and 60 psi in just one minute. I don't think the irrigation guys matched their zones to the pump output very well. They claimed that their zones were set for 18 gpm, which is what was listed on the pressure tank sticker as the pump output for my original 1.5hp pump, but in reality it is much higher output than that. The pump guys put in a 1hp replacement pump, telling me that it should be better matched to the irrigation zones.

As for my CSV, they removed it from the main water line going into the pressure tank. They didn't take it with them though, so I need to get someone to reinstall it and probably set it this spring when we turn on the irrigation system. Maybe they are right that the 1hp pump will not cycle as much as the 1.5hp pump did before it died.

Thanks again for your help. I did get the check in the mail from the pump guys. So I essentially ended up with a free pump and no charge on the labor to put it in. Again, I don't know what you said to those guys, but they called me that night and offered to refund all of my money. I would have been willing to pay them for their labor, but they said that I'd get a check for the full amount I paid and that's what I got.

 

[Valveman]

It is almost impossible to match every sprinkler zone to the pump. If the pump was cycling every minute, for 6 hours a day, that would be 360 cycles per day. Even cycling every 2 minutes would be 180 cycles per day. Max cycles on a 1HP to 5HP is 100 cycles per day. So yeah, cycling was probably what burned up the motor. Glad you got your CSV back. Be sure to install it before you start irrigating in the spring.

Made this thread a sticky, and am going to add a couple more stories like yours. That way the next time this happens no one will have to ask what to do. They will be able to see their pump guy is just trying to screw them when they say a CSV causes pump failures.

 

[Valveman]

Last year I got a call from a CSV customer. He has three houses, all with pump and dump heat pumps. For the last 15 years, all three houses have been using Cycle Stop Valves to keep the well pump from cycling to death. This year one of the well pumps finally failed for some reason. The home owner had been using Pentair pumps, and since they lasted a good amount of time, he had a new Pentair pump installed in the well. Within a week the new pump failed. Installer replaced it, and sent it in for a warranty. Within another week, before they even heard back from the first warranty, the second pump failed. Having had two failures in such a short time, the installer got the distributor involved. The installer, distributor, and a Pentair rep show up at the customers house. The others hadn't even got in the well house before the Pentair rep, was saying "warranty is void because you have a CSV".

I was on the phone with the customer and heard all of this going on. On speaker phone I hear the Pentair rep telling everyone there that Pentair will not warranty any pump with a Cycle Stop Valve. Again, I asked if she could get me that in writing?

During all of this the homeowner was explaining to everyone that this was one of three houses he owned. He said all three had CSV's controlling the pumps for the last 15 years with no problems. It didn't matter to her. She was insistent that the CSV was the reason for the failure of all the pumps. I asked her what about a CSV would cause her companies pumps to fail? "Not enough flow and overheating the pump and motor", was her quick answer. I said "well, then an autopsy on the pump should easily show heat damage right"? She agreed and since the homeowner was standing there, they would take the last two pumps to the factory for inspection, and let me know the outcome.

A few weeks pass, and I finally here from the homeowner. Pentair said the capacitors in the two wire motors failed. They got a batch of bad capacitors that would not stand up under continuous duty. As I already knew, the failures had nothing to do with the Cycle Stop Valve. There was no heat damage to the pump/motor whatsoever. The homeowner got an apology and a free pump. I didn't even get a call back, much less an apology from Pentair.

I am sure she was taught this by the company she works for. After 25+ years, I am still amazed at the things these companies will say to keep homeowners from getting a CSV. And since I didn't get an apology from Pentair, I am using this to let everyone know the pump manufacturers will tell you they won't warranty their pump when using a CSV, because they know the CSV will make the pump last longer, and they don't like that.

 

[Valveman]

Here is another typical conversation with a well driller who doesn't know how pumps work. In the conversation he says "Chad at Pentair pump said "do not use a Cycle Stop Valve because it will burn up your Gxx Dxxx pump".

Home owners should be very concerned that their pump installer and even the manufacturer is trying to pull the wool over their eyes about a product that will make your pump system last much longer.

 

[930dreamer]

Glad you got this straightened out.

 

[Valveman]

Glad you got this straightened out.

Oh it is far from straightened out. I am just using this thread to post all the stupid stuff installers and manufacturers say about the CSV. In our 26th year with hundreds of thousands of happy customers, some idiots still want to claim a CSV won't work or will harm the pump. I am determined to expose these idiots, so home owners don't get screwed by these unscrupulous characters.

 

[Valveman]

Here is one this morning from a forum that banned me for telling the truth. Some of this is from over 10 years ago. Even when a customer chimes in and says they are wrong and that his CSV has been working flawlessly for 10 years now, they still claim the jury is out on if the CSV really works. NO! The jury is still out as to whether these idiots will ever get a clue about how pumps work.

I know this is an old thread but I stumbled on it while again researching well systems. After reading all your post I had to register to respond. I can only assume that the banned guy is Valveguy from Cycle Stop valves. He is all over these type threads. My name is Dan and I too was skeptical of all his claims. But 10 years ago I had a Waterfurnace GSHP installed. It is a two stage 4 ton unit that operates at either 4 gallon per minute or 8 gallons per minute depending upon first or second stage. At that time I researched trying to figure out what I needed in my well system to make my heat pump work and also provide water to the rest of my house. I wanted to have plenty of water so I figured 8gpm heat pump plus 10gpm house. It came down to a variable flow pump system or Cycle Stop valve. The variable speed pump system was well over $1,000 the cycle stop valve was under $200. I installed a 1hp 2 wire 18 gallon per minute pump with a CSV1W and it has worked flawlessly for 10 years. I have plenty of water no matter if most everything in house and outside running. I have not measured the amp draw of my well pump at different flow rates but I can state that it prevents my well pump from short cycling with a 20 gal- 5-gallon drawdown pressure tank. It operates exactly as it states on their website. If I'm using 2 gallons a minute I have 58 lb of pressure if I'm using 18 gallons a minute and I have about 45 lb of pressure. I adjusted it so it takes 1.5 min to fill pressure tank after water use stops. So for someone who like me who is a do-it-yourselfer and wants to keep things simple and inexpensive the cycle stop valve is a great product. My brother built his house about a year after I installed my system and he too has a Cycle Stop installed in his well system that has worked for 9 years flawlessly as they advertise. He has a 3 horsepower 18 gallon a minute pump set at over five hundred foot deep with a 5-ton single stage 9 gallon per minute Waterfurnace heat pump. My well pump died on Me 2 days ago and I am installing a new well pump today with the same cycle stop valve that has been there for 10 years. I am again researching variable flow control boxes to see if anything's changed when I stumbled across this post and decided I would share my experience with you all. So far my research shows that variable speed control boxes are still well over $1,000 for a two wire one horse pump. And with the fact that they are electrical and prone to lightning strikes and other failures I'm going to continue to use the same cycle stop valve that has served me well for 10 years. I have a 2000 square foot house with a partially heated 2000 square foot basement with two adults and three children living in the home and my electric bill runs between $150 and $180 per month. When a valve on my heat pump went bad and I had to use the emergency electric heat from the heat pump and I had a $480 electric bill so I don't think the cycle stop valve is causing me to use too much electric from my well pump.

Here is the response from a so called driller. "Sanitize"? Yeah right! They don't want people to know the truth because they make so much money off unsuspecting homeowners with those VFD type systems. Many are still falsely claiming VFD's "save energy" just to make the trap look even more inviting.

Dan, Hi and welcome
Yes valveman was banned here. I am glad you are having positive results with your cycle stop valve. After the " great VFD war " We as a community with the help of our former moderator chose to sanitize all the threads to allow a more positive experience for visitors and members alike. Questions about the long term performance of both products are still being sought. Thanks for sharing your experiences and stop back again.
Eric

I get dozens of thank yous everyday from homeowners who are appreciative of a little experienced help. However, I can truthfully say that MOST of the drillers and pump installers, like the one above, will do anything they can to keep you from hearing the truth. They make so much more money if you don't educate yourself and just buy the equipment they say is best.

There are still some very good drillers and pump installers, many of which help out on this forum. But they are few and far between. A good pump installer can be worth his weight in gold. But one that just thinks he is a good pump installer can make your water system an expensive nightmare. To weed out the bad installers just ask if VFD's save energy. If they answer yes, run away fast and find a more knowledgeable installer.

 

[Midriller]

There are a couple things i would like to add to this..... I will admit i am a variable speed constant pressure well guy but in more that a few situations i find myself putting CSVs in for a variety of reasons. A CSV is a wonderful thing WHEN INSTALLED CORRECTLY. If your pump was a 1.5 H.P 18 gpm that system would require at least a 62 Gal pressure tank (if engineered correctly) If i were to install a CSV in that setup my run times would go through the roof. Which is great in July and you are irrigating but it has no real advantage in December when water usage is to a minimum. The key is designing a system that works perfectly for the end user. Not every person needs a VFD or CSV. Also in the future check review sites and online ratings instead of just calling the contractor who's name is on it. Unfortunately, this guy probably get away with this all the time and will continue to do so.

Daniel Siebenaler
A+ Well Service
Galesburg Mi 49053
(269)350-4331

 

[Valveman]

Thanks Daniel
That is just a typical conversation with a pump man or driller. You will find very few that know pumps well enough to understand the value of a Cycle Stop Valve. You are correct that they need to be installed correctly. Most pump guys do not know how to figure back pressure and horsepower drop, so they just use a VFD to force any pump into doing what they want it to do, even though it is expensive and will shorten the life of the pump.

Understanding how to install correctly takes a little education. Like when using a CSV with a 62 gallon tank or even larger, the run times do not "go through the roof". With a 40/60 pressure switch you simply set the CSV for 58 PSI, and it will give you a two minute run time even with large pressure tanks. You can use a CSV with a million gallon pressure tank or water tower. The larger the tank, the closer you set the CSV to the off setting.

I have a customer in Oregon that uses an 86 gallon tank and a CSV with every system. Big tanks do not cause extra run time when you figure out what pressure to set the CSV.

BTW, I will be recommending you when someone in your area ask for a good pump man.

 

[Midriller]

I agree 100%, here in Mi we run into a problem with irr. guys that put a 45PSI CSV (cause that's the pressure they want their system to run at) on a 40-60 switch and a 62 gal tank and it ends up with a 8 min cycle time (with a 2 gpm min flow) I have not experienced some of the issues with the cu-301 but I have also seen many of them fail for a multitude of issues (lightning, improper install, bad tanks, poor electrical) I still prefer three phase for VFD applications, but is rarely available. Unfortunately, a well is only as good as the last guy to work on it. (Thanks for any future recommendations as all a greatly appreciated)

 

[Valveman]

If the irrigation guy wants to set the CSV at 45 PSI when using a large pressure tank, just turn the pressure switch down to 27/47 and you will get a 2 minute run time even with the big tank. However, a 62 gallon tank holds about 15 gallons of water, so the customer only sees the strong constant pressure from the CSV after using the first 15 gallons. That means with a 3 GPM shower the pressure won't get strong and constant for about 5 minutes until the tank is empty and the CSV can get to work. Small tanks mean constant pressure much quicker.

 

[wascalwabbitt]

Hi Valveman,
This thread has grabbed my attention cause it seems so counter intuitive. My own education only goes so far as having to deal with the water well drillers and installers lol.
Do you have a video showing amp draw reduction when a pump's flow is dead headed? A picture is worth a thousand words -so to speak.
I have a 110' deep well, running 6 US GPM, with a Jacuzzi (I believe) submersible pump pushing into a 30 gallon pressure tank set at 40/60. Is this too low flow of a system to warrant a CSV?
wascal

 

[Midriller]

Hi Valveman,
Do you have a video showing amp draw reduction when a pump's flow is dead headed? A picture is worth a thousand words -so to speak.
I have a 110' deep well, running 6 US GPM, with a Jacuzzi (I believe) submersible pump pushing into a 30 gallon pressure tank set at 40/60. Is this too low flow of a system to warrant a CSV?
wascal

It is not too small. The CSV will significantly lower your cycles per day. With that being said if the tank is in good shape you may not see a huge difference. And you are going to want to set you CSV to just a few pounds below your cut out on your pressure switch.

 

[Valveman]

Even better than a video, your pump curve will show how much the horsepower or amps will drop when the flow is restricted. Here is one of a 1.5HP pump that works from a service factor of 1.9 HP to as low as 0.5 HP when only pumping 1 GPM. This is the way all good centrifugal type pumps work. Some brands will drop lower than others just because of the impeller design.

 

[wascalwabbitt]

So if I understand what you're saying, based on this graphs:

As the head on the pump increases, the gpm outflow decreases.
As the gpm outflow decreases, the pump hp needed decreases. And less hp takes less amps.
By manually restricting the flow, you are effectively increasing the head.
What's up doc -- that's blyming crazy!!! lol

With the increased head and the reduced flow, will the pressure still be maintained?
Chould a house well be choked back to less than 2 gpm and still maintain adequate flow for the shower, etc

 

[Valveman]

By George I think you've got it!

That is just the way pumps work normally. This is why I say a VFD is just trying to trick a pump into doing something it already does naturally. The amps or horsepower will drop when restricting the flow with a simple valve the same as they do when reducing the pump speed with a VFD.

Because it takes about 2/10S of a GPM to keep a de-rated motor cool, the CSV has a minimum flow built in of 1 GPM, or 5 times what is needed to keep the motor cool. So as long as you are using more than 1 GPM, which 2 GPM would qualify, the CSV will keep the pump/motor cool, running continuously (not cycling), and the pressure to the house at a constant 50 PSI or whatever pressure you set the CSV. Constant 50 PSI in the shower is more than adequate. It is so much stronger than when the pump is continually cycling between 40 and 60 that people tell me they no longer even need soap in the shower. LOL!

I am just blown away by the number of pump guys who don't understand this. Like the one in the recording, they think restricting the flow with a valve will harm the pump, and VFD's save energy. As you can tell from the recording, once a pump man has this myth-understanding in his head he won't even shut up long enough to learn how pumps really work.