Cycle Stop Valve voided my well pump warranty???

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Midriller

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Yes very typical. It will probably drop to 6 amps when using less water or filling the pressure tank. Some pump brands will drop even more than that. By making a 9 amp motor run at 7.4 or less the CSV is making the motor run cooler and last longer.
I would never expect to see a motor drop more than 25% in a residential setting. Also the motor is warmer when the CSV is closed than when open, but is cooler than if it we're in a short cycling scenario. This is also why a CSV has never been considered to "save electricity"
 

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It all depends on the design of the pump. Some pumps won't drop 10%, but ones like in the attached curve will drop as much as 67%. Amps are directly related to heat. So the motor is 10% to 67% cooler when being restricted with a CSV. Running at max amps is what produces the most heat, and short cycling doesn't allow time for the heat to dissipate before the motor starts again.

I understand that even though a CSV causes the amps to drop by 67% it is not saving energy. You will get more gallons per kilowatt using 2.3HP pumping 28 GPM than when using 0.75HP and only pumping 2 GPM. But the EXACT SAME THING happens when using a VFD, and many people will tell you it is saving 67% energy, which is absolutely not true. To combat this myth-understanding I always say a CSV saves just as much energy as a VFD. This makes some engineers mad enough to actually learn how to read a pump curve and figure out I am right. :)

25S20-11 curve.jpg
 

Midriller

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It all depends on the design of the pump. Some pumps won't drop 10%, but ones like in the attached curve will drop as much as 67%. Amps are directly related to heat. So the motor is 10% to 67% cooler when being restricted with a CSV. Running at max amps is what produces the most heat, and short cycling doesn't allow time for the heat to dissipate before the motor starts again.

I understand that even though a CSV causes the amps to drop by 67% it is not saving energy. You will get more gallons per kilowatt using 2.3HP pumping 28 GPM than when using 0.75HP and only pumping 2 GPM. But the EXACT SAME THING happens when using a VFD, and many people will tell you it is saving 67% energy, which is absolutely not true. To combat this myth-understanding I always say a CSV saves just as much energy as a VFD. This makes some engineers mad enough to actually learn how to read a pump curve and figure out I am right. :)

View attachment 53738
What brand and model of the pump you have shown in this curve?
 

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Top right hand corner shows a 25S20-11, which is a Grundfos number. Nearly all Grundfos pumps and many of there copies will have an amp drop like this. Goulds and other floating stack designs will usually drop 20%-30%. Only the "floating stage" pumps like Franklins new 25 GPM and smaller designs as well as Pentair pumps won't drop much in amps. Even so many of those will still drop 20%-30% as well. Some pump designs are really bad like the 10 GPM Pentair which won't drop in amps at all.

Here is the link to the Product Catalog for Grundfos. They show the horsepower curve for all their models. Grundfos should be proud they have a pump design so good it doesn't need a VFD to reduce energy consumption. But they act like they don't know that and push VFD's anyway.

https://product-selection.grundfos.com/catalogue.product families.sp, sp-g.sp, north america.sp, north america.html?time=1560167664455

Even the 10 GPM Grundfos pumps drop a lot in amps. Here is one that drops from 1.2HP to 0.5HP. That is a 58% drop in horsepower by simply restricting the pump with a valve. I could do the math but I doubt using a VFD to vary the speed would get the horsepower any lower than that.

10S07-12.png
 

Midriller

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Top right hand corner shows a 25S20-11, which is a Grundfos number. Nearly all Grundfos pumps and many of there copies will have an amp drop like this. Goulds and other floating stack designs will usually drop 20%-30%. Only the "floating stage" pumps like Franklins new 25 GPM and smaller designs as well as Pentair pumps won't drop much in amps. Even so many of those will still drop 20%-30% as well. Some pump designs are really bad like the 10 GPM Pentair which won't drop in amps at all.

Here is the link to the Product Catalog for Grundfos. They show the horsepower curve for all their models. Grundfos should be proud they have a pump design so good it doesn't need a VFD to reduce energy consumption. But they act like they don't know that and push VFD's anyway.

https://product-selection.grundfos.com/catalogue.product families.sp, sp-g.sp, north america.sp, north america.html?time=1560167664455

Even the 10 GPM Grundfos pumps drop a lot in amps. Here is one that drops from 1.2HP to 0.5HP. That is a 58% drop in horsepower by simply restricting the pump with a valve. I could do the math but I doubt using a VFD to vary the speed would get the horsepower any lower than that.

View attachment 53867
My Flint and Walling Pumps wont drop but maybe 20%. I will have to see if the SQE/SQ pumps are able to drop like that as we pul a ton of them in, and a simple pump out tool will "act" like a CSV for testing reasons. I personally have never seen this type of amp reduction in a 2 wire pump, but thats why i ask detailed questions, i wont learn anything from generalizations. I would say 75% of the pumps in my area are F&W, Franklin, or Pentair driven. Are these motors still being cooled properly with no or little HP (amp) reduction and reduced water flow to 1 gpm in a 5" well. That seems like the water would be moving very slowly and would either need to be sleeved or more flow?
 

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According to Franklin's hot water application chart just de-rating or dropping the amps by as little as 10% will allow those small motors to safely operate with water as hot as 131F degrees. Only about 2/10S of a GPM is needed to keep these pump/motors cool. So, the 1 GPM minimum in a CSV is 5 times more flow than needed to keep the motor cool. Although in 26 years not even a 10 GPM Pentair has been damaged by a CSV, and they do not drop amps much at all.

The SQ pumps have a good drop in amps. They are listed in the Product Catalog where you can see the horsepower curve. Here is one that drops from 1.4HP to 0.8HP.

10SQ07.jpg
 

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I think the 240 is the full 3/4HP load. The 200 is really a 1/2HP pump on a 3/4HP motor, so there isn't as much drop in amps. Also look at the shape of the horsepower curve. There is a high spot at 10-11 GPM. Wide open it draws 0.95HP and at shut off only 0.7HP. Doesn't look like the ball valve is completely closed? Might make a little difference, but not a lot of amp drop on that pump.
10SQ07-200 curve.jpg
 

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Running less than 7 GPM doesn't void the warranty. Bringing a motor in that shows obvious signs of a lack of cooing will void a warranty, but you will see that with a VFD, never a CSV.
 

Terry

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As a matter of fact they labeled the CSV a "disruptive product".
When pump companies were offered a way "to make pumps last longer and use smaller tanks" (their words), they called it "disruptive" wanted nothing to do with it.
They just know they like the money they make off of VFD systems, and that alone should worry the customer.

I think you should make a thread with the information from the post above and come up with a good title for it.
A positive message about the Cycle Stop Valve.

I see all the time where manufacturers slightly cheapen things so that the lifespans are degraded allowing for more future sales. The Internet is our way of sharing what is working well, despite what their advertising is trying to sell us. Thanks for keeping everyone informed Cary.
 

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Thanks Terry! I will start a new thread like that. But no matter how "positive" I start, it will probably go negative quickly. I think maybe who is negative and who is positive about the CSV should be the direction of the thread. Anything negative you find will have been written by an "engineer or pump installer", but not a pump or motor manufacturer. The pump and motor manufacturers will say negative things about the CSV, but I cannot get them to admit it or put it in writing. However, ALL of our customers from as far back as 1993 are happy and positive about the CSV, as hundreds of five star reviews and old style testimonials prove.

When hundreds of my neighbors say a product works, saved them a lot of money, and solved their problems, I want one and don't even need to know what it does. When I see pump manufacturers and installers (who make money selling pumps) jumping up and down despising it, I want one even more. I can't see a pump manufacturer or installer despising something for making them more money? They just don't like it when something messes with their planned obsolescence.

"Cheapening up things so that lifespans are degraded" is the way the pump business operates. The big companies buy out the smaller ones to get rid of competition. Then they cheapen the product and sell one pump under ten different names, including the name of the company who use to make the good product. Motor companies buy out other motor companies, then all of a sudden the only motors available are shorter and cheaper made. They are doing their best to build VFD's into every motor, and don't fool yourself thinking that is to make it less expensive and longer lasting for the homeowner.

We would all be stuck with having to do what the manufacturers and installers want if we couldn't get together and see what our neighbors are doing. I quit going to trade shows and supplier hot dog days years ago. There is no sense in trying to sell a disruptive product to the people who's livelihood it disrupts. A disruptive product is good for the end user. But to find out about such things we have to go around the people who don't want us to know about it. Thank goodness for the Internet and thank you again Terry.
 

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I believe it is those who promote VFD's are looking through rose colored glasses. VFD's have certainly got a lot better. But they still have a lot of the problems they had thirty years ago when I stopped using them.

I do agree people should educate themselves before they make a decision. That is why I am on these forums, and is how I sell Cycle Stop Valves. When given all the information, people nearly always choose the CSV. Even when they don't, I get a call a few years later telling me they should have.

I think you will find the same three people on the entire Internet who post anything negative about the CSV, and they have no idea what they are talking about. However, all I have to do to perk up is to read some of my recent reviews. I don't filter reviews. If there were any bad ones, they would be on the top of the list. I have hundreds of five star reviews and no bad ones at all. Our reviews are so good people wouldn't believe them if everyone didn't come with a picture. Here is the list of reviews.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews

And here is just one I picked at random.

Juergen
Changed one SubDrive 75 pump and two Control boxes over 12 years. Was fed up with the cost of SubDrive components (Control boxes $795-1295, $2200+ system), and the proprietary nature of the components. Suffered from lower than expected performance and well documented susceptibility to power fluctuations. Was unable to find replacement pump for this third go-round. Found the CSV1A Kit which allows use of standard well components coupled with the CSV. I replicated my Constant Pressure Manifold and added the CSV components to make up a system for my application. My well is 186FT deep, and 600ft from the house. Was able to source a 3-wire 1.5hp pump and the team rigged my configuration to maintain 60psi (10gal tank). We have incredible improvements in sustained pressure when using exterior garden hoses and use of multiple sources simultaneously (dishwasher, shower, hose etc).


Sub Drive replaced.jpeg
 

Valveman

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Oh heck. Just posting one more review. I can show lots of positive stuff about CSV's, but I will still have to fight the negativity.


Bobalouie
I wanted to sorta " clean up" the well plumbing in our basement, and eliminate all galvanized fittings. This is a two inch well, with a Flint & Walling pump that's older than dirt, but works well. I purchased the cycle stop valve kit, and had custom stainless steel flex lines ( 3/4 inch ) from the pump to the " kit", and onto the softener, and into the house system. Whenever any water is used, the " little" tank emptys, and off the pump goes. It keeps the pressure right at 50 psig, as long as the water is being used. After flow is stopped,the pump continues to run & fill up the " little " pressure tank. ( I'd guess about one gallon or so ) stops the pump, and sits there ready to supply the house system as needed. We really like the performance of this kit. While using something like a shower,the pressure never drops, ( and yes,I watched the thing while a shower was being used, even two youngsters were using both showers, the thing still kept the darn pressure right near the 50 psig ). I'd say that's pretty good. Would I install one again, absolutely...

Bobalouie before and after.jpg
 

Valveman

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The CSV verses VFD debate has been going on for 30 years. 25 years ago they told me the next generation of VFD would solve all the problems of the last version had. They have said that every 18 months since then. And 25 years later they are much closer to making VFD's work as well and be almost as inexpensive as a CSV. But I still believe when there are two or more ways to accomplish a task, the simplest way is always best.

However, this thread is about pump installers and pump manufacturers telling their customers a CSV will void the warranty, in order to force them into using the more profitable VFD. That is just wrong on so many levels.
 

Brody Reb

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Sorry for replying to an old thread, but I didn't want to create a new one when so many exist. This is all new to me but I feel like I've struck gold in learning about the CSV.

I came across this video on Youtube and wanted your help in understanding why this is happening and if it's a potential problem? It shows a CSV system backpressure shooting way up after demand is turned off.


Thank you
 

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Increasing back pressure on the pump is how a CSV makes the pump think it is in a deeper well so it can only produce 1 GPM when filling the tank or using just 1 GPM. Even 200 PSI is not going to hurt the pump. The high back pressure actually makes the amps drop and the motor run cooler. However, there is a limit to how much back pressure the CSV and the pipe can handle. That particular CSV125 is only rated for up to 150 PSI. As you can see it is still working fine with 200 PSI on it, but that is more than recommended. The CSV1A can handle up to 400 PSI back pressure, and would have been better for the pump in the video. As long as you check the back pressure from the pump you have and make sure to have a CSV that is rated for that much, the pipe is the only thing to consider. Most down hole pipe is rated for 200+ PSI, so it is not a problem, Even most underground pipe is rated for 200 or better PSI. Back pressure is a good thing for pumps. You just have to figure it and stay within the guidelines.
 

Brody Reb

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Increasing back pressure on the pump is how a CSV makes the pump think it is in a deeper well so it can only produce 1 GPM when filling the tank or using just 1 GPM. Even 200 PSI is not going to hurt the pump. The high back pressure actually makes the amps drop and the motor run cooler. However, there is a limit to how much back pressure the CSV and the pipe can handle. That particular CSV125 is only rated for up to 150 PSI. As you can see it is still working fine with 200 PSI on it, but that is more than recommended. The CSV1A can handle up to 400 PSI back pressure, and would have been better for the pump in the video. As long as you check the back pressure from the pump you have and make sure to have a CSV that is rated for that much, the pipe is the only thing to consider. Most down hole pipe is rated for 200+ PSI, so it is not a problem, Even most underground pipe is rated for 200 or better PSI. Back pressure is a good thing for pumps. You just have to figure it and stay within the guidelines.

Valveman, thanks for clarifying. I did come across other threads where it was mentioned to make sure you did not have thin walled poly that has lower max pressure ratings. I also only saw others mentioning rising to 150 psi not beyond. When the time comes, I'll be sure to place a gauge to monitor back pressure as well.
 

White Shadow

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Hi, I'm the original poster and I'm back again with a new question. I recently started using my irrigation system and noticed that my tank pressure gauge seems to stay a bit lower than I remember last year. As a reminder, I set up my system as follows:

Pressure Switch set at 49/70
CSV set to 66psi with 3 gpm running through a garden hose

Last year, I wrote in my notes that the pressure tank would stay around 56 - 59 psi while the irrigation was running. This year, I noticed that it sits at 50 - 53 psi. Any idea why it's maintaining a lower pressure?

I also tried an experiment this morning when my irrigation was running. I checked the pressure gauge on the tank and it was a steady 53 psi. Then I turned on three faucets in the house and I watched the pressure gauge slowly drop down to 50 psi. I watched it for about five minutes and it just seemed to stay at 50 psi. Then I turned off all three faucets and the tank pressure gauge returned to 53 psi. Does that seem like normal operation?
 

Valveman

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Could just be the gauge? Does it show the pump to still come on at 49 and off at 70? The setting of the CSV should not have changed. Could also be your sprinkler nozzles are a little worn from last year and letting out a little more water than they did. Check your garden hose at 3 GPM to see if it is still holding 66 as it was set and see if the on/off is still the same. Lower water level, pump worn, clogged screen, there are lots of possible reasons for the low pressure. Start with the gauge.
 
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