Check valve bad, burnt up well motor

[Ballvalve]

Interesting read here, like a good detective story. But without a body you won't get a conviction. Seems to me the OP should have laid 500' of pipe from the well at the house to the barn right off the bat. Pipe is cheap, fighting a well driller that wants $210 an hour would pay for a booster pump at the house well very quickly. If the house well was installed by the same company, she should get a good technician and trouble shooter to inspect that well and make it work right. One must wonder why a 2 HP pump was set that was so close to its dead head curve. If she was able to water the horses with 100 gallons of hauled water a day, a high head 1 hp pump would have been more than adequate.
Reminds me of the benefits of immersing ones self in the subject and setting your own pumps. From what I have seen, it's pretty rare to get a well driller that is also a great tech guy, or vice versa. In fact, I would say many of them are downright dolts that don't really have a clue. I always have to laugh when a plumber gets into a well pump situation. That is usually a "Gosh and by Golly" analysis. Crazy things can happen.

We also should tell the original poster that contractors that get a yelling woman on the phone about drilling a new well and setting a new pump for free, are very unlikely to ever come to the site and suffer direct abuse. They know that's a service call that will never be paid.

 

[Valveman]

Just got off a long conversation with the owner. Lot of new information. This pump is only used to fill horse troughs with a garden hose. There is only one frost free hydrant on the system. The hydrant is turned on once a day to fill a couple hundred gallons of troughs and buckets, then the frost free is closed.

I think the key information is that this well has been pumping air from day one. The owner left the hose running in the field for a couple of days as it coughed up dirt and air. The dirt cleaned up and he just shut the hydrant. Over time the hose would blow air into the horse troughs on occasions. On one occasion the hose coughed up a lot of black smelly hot water, and even steam. The first control box was replaced after the red button overloads kept tripping. There are really no records or even and invoice to tell how much drop pipe was used, so we don't know the pump setting. The owner said when it would start burping air he would just close the hydrant, and didn't know to go look and see if the pump got to 60 and shut off. Of course that is something the homeowner shouldn't have to worry about. The pump probably just kept running and didn't shut off. And this had been happening since the pump was installed a year and a half ago. I believe the pump got hot many times.

There are a lot of things going on here. From what I understand the driller would not come out to check for problems when called. This could have been prevented had someone seen the air problem a long time ago. Just reinforces my belief it was a complete lack of flow that melted everything.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Just got off a long conversation with the owner. Lot of new information. This pump is only used to fill horse troughs with a garden hose. There is only one frost free hydrant on the system. The hydrant is turned on once a day to fill a couple hundred gallons of troughs and buckets, then the frost free is closed.

I think the key information is that this well has been pumping air from day one. The owner left the hose running in the field for a couple of days as it coughed up dirt and air. The dirt cleaned up and he just shut the hydrant. Over time the hose would blow air into the horse troughs on occasions. On one occasion the hose coughed up a lot of black smelly hot water, and even steam. The first control box was replaced after the red button overloads kept tripping. There are really no records or even and invoice to tell how much drop pipe was used, so we don't know the pump setting. The owner said when it would start burping air he would just close the hydrant, and didn't know to go look and see if the pump got to 60 and shut off. Of course that is something the homeowner shouldn't have to worry about. The pump probably just kept running and didn't shut off. And this had been happening since the pump was installed a year and a half ago. I believe the pump got hot many times.

There are a lot of things going on here. From what I understand the driller would not come out to check for problems when called. This could have been prevented had someone seen the air problem a long time ago. Just reinforces my belief it was a complete lack of flow that melted everything.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

The 2HP Franklin pump is a floating stage system so the comment that it takes more than 1gpm of water to cool the pump may in fact be true and may the root of this evil. If this is the case, then the Allied well letter referenced above is in fact saying this very thing (except he is blaming it on the size of the pressure tank which is inaccurate but the concept is the same). So if this is not the problem then maybe it is the psi issue. Whatever it is, I think there is a design flaw in our system. If it is the floating stage system requiring more cooling water around the pump then Valveman has some testing to do.

My husband is confident that the CSV 125 was set correctly and the pressure switch is set to 40-60. The control box has red buttons to reset.

We chose a 2HP pump because we eventually will build another barn with a living quarters and did not want to redo another well so we wanted to get a big pump that would always give good water flow for one or two horse barns.

I filed a complaint with the Maryland State board of Well Drillers. The meeting date is April 25th, I have asked for the meeting minutes to see what (if anything is done with Allied--probably not). My husband called Allied Well President who in turn told Brett Sweeney (VP Allied Well) to call us back-maybe he is ready to apologize??. Unfortunately, I was at work when Brett Sweeny called so I am not sure if Allied Well has come to their senses or not. I will be calling him back tomorrow.

In the meantime, I called a master well driller who sits on the board and happens to own his own company to come give me a new well and he has never called back. So I am going to call the second master well driller who sits on the board and happens to own his own company to come fix the issue. Meanwhile, day 5, no water. VA Driller, maybe you want to come to Annapolis?

For Ball Valve, I love the detective story analogy! More importantly, I know that men hate to hear women bitch (just ask my husband)! I am pretty creative before I get super bitchy just FYI. For the record, I do not plan on being nice to Allied Well, I plan on getting to the bottom of this and plan on giving Allied Well a pretty good headache. Allied Well is pretty big but they have also been involved in some law suits showing their shady work in the field. I found out that the President is an attorney. Wow, this should be interesting! Not only a detective story but it is getting ready to be a soap opera.

I have learned just how much I don't know about fluid dynamics but did learn how much you gentlemen are invested in your trade and for that it was very reassuring that I have been in good hands.

 

[Valveman]

After finding out how you were using the water and that the well was making air from day one, I don't think the minimum flow the pump can handle was the problem. As a matter of fact I think the problems you had may be a testament to the pump that it lasted that long. I do plan to test the new Franklin floating stage pumps, but I really do not think they get hot with at least 1 GPM flow and will work just like all the other brands. I just don't want to have to buy a Franklin pump to test. But like I said the Pentair is a similar design and I have tested thousands of those with no problem. Franklin just says their pump won't work at low flow unless you vary the speed, which is just an attempt to con people into a VFD instead of a CSV. There are currently many thousands of these Franklin pumps working with a CSV without any problems.

With only one frost free hydrant on the system and just filling buckets with a hose, the pump should never have run at low flow. With the little 4,5 gallon tank, the CSV is supposed to fill the tank and shut off the pump 30 seconds after you turn off the hose. This is not enough time at 1 GPM to get anything hot. I believe the problem is the pump did not make it to 60 and shut off after you closed the hose. That is how pumps get the well so hot. And even if the water level was high enough for that pump to reach 60, it loses prime when you pump air and stops pumping.

We also do not know the depth the pump is set. But whatever depth it is set the water level is there, because it is pumping air. I assume the pump is set deeper than 220', which is too deep for the pump to be able to make 60 PSI even if it had the water in the well to do so. No matter what it is not going to be a warranty issue for the pump. The pump was fine and worked a year and a half. It was pumping air and/or the depth of the pump setting that cooked a perfectly good pump. If the driller had come back when the first control box failed, tested the system and ask a few questions, he could have found the problem before it got this bad. One service call by someone who knew what they were doing could have saved all this drama and expense.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Valve man, I totally agree. I’ll write in when I know more. I got a hold of a couple of drillers so we will work to get this figured out and will post with an update.

 

[Fitter30]

Don't think slots were cut in the casing or blocked by mud because if the pump was surrounded by water it couldn't suck air. The only place air could enter is from top of casing after pump sucked all the water from the casing. Pump would over heat because it was sitting in air not water. As far as a small expansion tank can't see it short cycling with how system was being used.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Thanks for the invite to MD but I'm pretty busy down here. I stand by my assertion that if the well yield was as reported on the form, this was a good pump pick; and I think math, published pump curves, and other neutral 3rd party pump reps will agree. If the yield was not correct then that may be a different story.

The report was a little fuzzy on my download but the pump depth was listed and I think it said 230 ft.

I think there was cycling going on that caused the control box to trip the overloads multiple times and eventually need to be replaced. I think this could have caused a crack or split in the drop pipe which lead to the pump running continuously and overheating.

Which model csv was installed....the adjustable one with the sidekick kit or the fixed valve? If it was the fixed valve, was it installed in the well. Whichever valve, who installed it?

 

[VAWellDriller]

The depth the pump was set keeps coming up in posts...it is basically irrelevant to the situation. The critically important fact to know in correctly sizing a pump is the stabilized pumping water level or depth to water if you a reading a pump chart. This pump could be set at 350' and it would still easily build shutoff pressure with the reported well yield which is very typical for your area.

 

[Valveman]

There is no way cycling could have been an issue with the way water was being used. Even if it was cycling while filling horse troughs, cycling a pump for 15-20 minutes a day is not going to do that kind of damage.

The pump setting, depth to water, cooling requirement for the pump/motor, and how fast the well can replenish are all irrelevant. It was pumping the well dry period. Pumptec, Coyote, Symcom, Submonitor, Cycle Sensors, and many other pump and control companies make devices like these to protect the pump from running dry. It is well known running dry will cook the pump, and in many instances will melt the casing as well. Especially if the frost free hydrant was closed while the pump was making air. The next time they opened the hydrant they got hot water, muck, and even steam because the pump had never shut off, probably for at least a day. And this happened more than once before it melted the casing.

 

[beeje]

I am a Maryland resident also. I have been on well water here in the Westminster area for 25+ years. I just replaced my pump/pipe/wire etc myself (with some help). I have seen many well heads here locally and I have NEVER seen a 4" casing anywhere. They are all 6". Makes no sense to me why a 4" casing was installed.

 

[Reach4]

I am a Maryland resident also. I have been on well water here in the Westminster area for 25+ years. I just replaced my pump/pipe/wire etc myself (with some help). I have seen many well heads here locally and I have NEVER seen a 4" casing anywhere. They are all 6". Makes no sense to me why a 4" casing was installed.

I have a 4 inch casing. I wish I had a 5, but 4 works. I am surprised at the number of people in some areas that have 2 inch casings. I was also surprised that many wells only have the casing go part of the way down. Those drills are buried through rock, so the casing is not needed.

 

[VAWellDriller]

I am a Maryland resident also. I have been on well water here in the Westminster area for 25+ years. I just replaced my pump/pipe/wire etc myself (with some help). I have seen many well heads here locally and I have NEVER seen a 4" casing anywhere. They are all 6". Makes no sense to me why a 4" casing was installed.

The well log actually says 4.5"...which I'm guessing was sdr17 which is a good thick very popular pipe. Mud rotary drilled wells in coastal plain are almost always 4 or 4.5" PVC in MD, VA, and NC that I personally know of.....probably the case in other states too. It has to do with economy and what people will pay for...hundreds of feet of casing....regulations about minimum borehole size all come into play. Here we have to have 1.5" annular minimum (over largest part of coupling OD) so that means 9" borehole for 4.5" pvc. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of good 4 or 4.5" wells.

Plenty of drillers lie about yield and if they lied and the yield was low I'll agree with Valvemans chain of events.....but I know running dry never causes overloads to trip...never causes control box to go bad. I know a CSV and a small tank not setup properly will short cycle because I've done it myself. Lots of possibilities exist...maybe well pumped sand and messed up CSV....maybe sand ruined impellers and it couldn't build shut off. I'd really like to know what kind of drop pipe it was. If they were able to lift it 12ft...they would know what it was and if it would hold water or not. If it holds water my theory of cracked pipe is definitely wrong. Just so many things to consider without seeing any of it personally its all speculation.

 

[Valveman]

Running dry does cause overloads to trip. The pump runs at low amps and no flow for quite a while. Then when the thrust bearing drops and/or the impellers melt together, the amps increase rapidly and trips the overload. By then it is really hot around that pump. I don't think the capacitor was bad, just the overload would not reset.

 

[Marcella Bonner]

Thanks for the invite to MD but I'm pretty busy down here. I stand by my assertion that if the well yield was as reported on the form, this was a good pump pick; and I think math, published pump curves, and other neutral 3rd party pump reps will agree. If the yield was not correct then that may be a different story.

The report was a little fuzzy on my download but the pump depth was listed and I think it said 230 ft.

I think there was cycling going on that caused the control box to trip the overloads multiple times and eventually need to be replaced. I think this could have caused a crack or split in the drop pipe which lead to the pump running continuously and overheating.

Which model csv was installed....the adjustable one with the sidekick kit or the fixed valve? If it was the fixed valve, was it installed in the well. Whichever valve, who installed it?

 

[Marcella Bonner]

The CSV was a 125 with a sidekick, installed by a plumber. I'm still working on finding a driller. Looks like no one wants to get involved. In the meantime, I have run 600ft of garden hose from my well at the house and now we have some water dribbling! Ha! I'll let you know when I find a driller to check out what is going on!

 

[LLigetfa]

I have run 600ft of garden hose from my well at the house and now we have some water dribbling!

Why not run larger diameter poly and get more flow?

 

[Ballvalve]

The CSV was a 125 with a sidekick, installed by a plumber. I'm still working on finding a driller. Looks like no one wants to get involved. In the meantime, I have run 600ft of garden hose from my well at the house and now we have some water dribbling! Ha! I'll let you know when I find a driller to check out what is going on!

Please follow up on this drama. You should not be surprised that the drillers on the board that will review your "Bad" original driller will not return calls; they can't work for you and judge the plaintiff. COI. I have a few properties with 2x 3/2 houses on a single well with a 1/2 hp pump. Bunch of kids and guests and lawns and never had a water loss complaint. I think you overdid the 2HP pump by a bunch, and the 25 gpm should have been a 16 or a 10. You might have water still and we would not be entertained by your troubles. 2 or 3 horse barns, a 1 HP pump is adequate by your own description of use, and likely less would be fine. Seems like even a simple Square D pressure switch with a low pressure cut out might have saved your well. And a $200 pump saver of many brands certainly would have. You must take some responsibility on your self. Water wells and pumps are a serious mine field. You also said a plumber installed the CSV. That is another mistake.

 

[Ballvalve]

Why not run larger diameter poly and get more flow?

Why not run that large pipe and install a 2000g tank on the hill and just forget about the 2 hp disaster? Booster pump = $300. Lawyer = $5000++

 

[Valveman]

Yeah I would kike to know what happened as well? But plumbers and even homeowners install CSV's all the time. It is not rocket science. And the CSV has nothing to do with pumping a well dry.