Water Treatment Pressure Drop

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, Questions and Answers' started by davehall83, Apr 24, 2020.

  1. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    Hello,

    So i am looking for some help. I had water treatment system installed in 2015 when i moved into my home they sold me (a plumber did) a water right impression acid neutralizer. After a year or more found out by having a water treatment company come in and test my water that the plumber sold me a undersized unit and i had more issues that needed addressed so that was $1600 in the trash. Fast forward this company puts in a Pentair Performa 263/742F Autotrol/Logix acid neutralizer with a clack 13x54 tank. Then a water softener a Pentair 268/762 Autotrol/Logix water softener on a clack 10x54 tank. They also installed a pentair ultrafiltration filter a UF-440. After that all was installed (i already had crappy water pressure) the water pressure was so bad it trickled out of the faucets. Id say around 20 PSI or 25. So they came in and put in a franklin eletric inline 400 booster pump after the filtration. That fixed the pressure i had about 20 psi going into pump and 90 psi after pump. Fast forward again, i need a new well pump. Now keep in mind i have still had some filtration issues but choose to not address it and my system was on maintenance contract and cleaned every year. So the well pump i had was a 3/4 hp 7gpm franklin electric 2 wire pump. Now i have a 2 hp 18GPM 18GS20 goulds 3 phase constant pressure system with the VFD 3AS20 controller. So i was told i still have 1.5 ppm iron getting past my filtration. Also the UF-440 ultrafilter that was clogged up was removed. We put in a 10 mic big blue 20 filter. So pressure test came and we had dead on 60 psi to the pressure tank. We turned on the filtration system and guess what we open one faucet an instant 30 psi drop i only had 30 psi after filtration. So we bypassed the acid neturalizer and water softener but keeping in mind we are still going through the big blue and 10 mic filter. Well we open the same faucet we have dead on 60 psi before and after the filter no issues. We then turn the water softener back on and acid neutralizer bam back to 30 psi drop. So that being said, so i dont get taken to the cleaners again i need some advice. First off the guy says its a fact my acid neutrailzer and/or water softener is the problem. I just had them serviced last week and they were cleaned. We did several backwashes and the system had crap coming out of it like iron water. However the unit after back washing several times still we had a 30 psi drop no matter what we did. So he recommend i throw the 10K i paid for all this stuff in the trash and go with his system. He said i should have clack valves, iron curtain , acid neutralizer and softener. He also said he has never seen a psi drop like this on anything he has installed. He said that we cant isolate which one is the culprit since the idiot that installed it didn't bother to install bypass valves. The only bypass valve option we have isolates the acid neutralizer and softener. To make a bypass valve happen would require some work but we definitely know its the equipment and i think its been a problem since day 1. So the guy says first off i should not have a 13x54 acid neutrailzer tank that i should have a 10x54. He thinks that its too much and may be causing my pressure drop. So what should i do, i dont want to spend 9K on his system. I could buy a clack 10x54 tank and try to see if that fixes it and that could be a couple hundred to do that. But how do i size it? my ph is 6.0 from the well so i need a calcite blend. I dont see how 10x54 which is a smaller tank than what i have a 13x54 is going to solve my problem? I am lost here and just need some ideas. I can replace the tanks myself or even system. But once i buy it, i am stuck with it. All the treatment guys i talk to are only trying to push their products and its a big money maker i know. I just need a solution at this point. I can use 10gpm in my home easy. we have 5 people, well water, 6.0 ph, probably 3ppm iron, some maganese etc. I have 3.5 baths. 2 of them have a huge jacuzzi tub and that really puts a toll on the system.
     
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2011
    Occupation:
    Semi-Retired
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    WOW! Never put a booster pump after the filtration. It has to potential to draw a vacuum and collapse the tanks. I'd answer more of your questions but the wall of text makes it hard to read.
     
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  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Always install a vacuum break between a pump and any treatment tanks. Collapsed tanks are really neat to look at. https://view.publitas.com/impact-water-products/2018-catalog-final/page/140-141

    Before we can make any recommendations you need to get a real laboratory test. Water treatment should not be that difficult. As to determining which tank it is, if you have Autotrols and your water guy has even a little bit of experience (sounds like he may be lacking) he would know that you can simply push the bypass valve open to see if that corrects the pressure drop.

    autotrol.jpg
     
  5. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    How do i push the bypass valve open? I just spent money on the performa bypass valve to install it so i can try and figure out if the water softeneor or the acid neutralizer is the problem. I have the 263/742f on my neutralizer and the 268/762 on the softeneor.
     
  6. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    Can you recommend where or what type of water test i should get? Test before or after treatment?
     
  7. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    I tell you what, you tell me what test to do, where to get it since there are so many out there i will follow your steps. You are right i have been through several folks here and none of them know what they are doing and unfortunately i havent found someone who isn't trying to sell this stuff like jewelry. So i am definitely educated somewhat on this stuff being doing alot of research. All i need is to figure out is what i need to buy to get this fixed. I want to maintain 60psi of water and 15 to 20 gpm of flow. Thats all i want. I have 6.0 acid water coming into the home i know that and i believe 2.0ppm iron but its been a while since i tested. You tell me what i need based on what you suggest i do to figure out the problem, i can troubleshoot and install those bypass valves i ordered that are made for the pentair valves i have. I can isolate the problem then if you help me, i will purchase all my equipment from you. Hows that sound? I got the idea, i just dont know what type of materials to use IE what and how much to rebed and acid neutralizer or softener resin is beyond me but if told the right mixtures and what to do i can definitely do it. Once i learn it i can maintain it. Your right it shouldn't be that hard but it seems like it is for these "water treatment companies" I have gotten ripped so bad i cant afford to get ripped again so i am to the point of do it myself if i want it right and some help with good folks such as yourself, i can do this.
     
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Occupation:
    Water systems designer, R&D, Technical Director
    Location:
    Ontario California
    NTLWATERTEST Click on the link, well test standard.

    Once you install the bypass all your questions will be answered. :)
     
  9. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Installing bypass valves on each treatment device is not a waste because each may then be isolated and removed if there is a problem vs being forced to shut down multiple treatment devices only because of one problem unit that can't be isolated separately.
     
  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    That is at least double what a house normally needs. Do you really need such a throughput?

    Yard irrigation will not be going through your treatment system probably, although maybe the pH part it might.
     
  11. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    I have actually seen that spike when someone is filling the jacuzzi bathtubs i saw about 12 to 13 gpm and if someone opens a faucet somewhere else....
     
  12. fitter30

    fitter30 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2020
    Occupation:
    Retired service tech
    Location:
    Peace valley missouri
    Totally agree with you but this pump is 1/3 hp with a shut off pressure of 55 lbs. Pick a pump that can run 100-110 lb discharge pressure on a VSD so even with the 30 lb pressure drop still have 70 lbs that can be fine tuned.
    heres the catalog for 400 pump
    https://littlegiant.com/products/wa...ressureboosting-systems/inline-400/#Downloads Screenshot_2020-04-27-12-07-47.png
     
  13. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    I already have this pump lol, they took it out when i had the VSD put in. The well driller who also sells their treatment system said that i need a whole new treatment system that i should never have a 30 psi drop. Also said that my 13x54 calcite tank is too big, said i should be 10x54. He said the psi should only drop by 2 to 3 when going through my treatment. Let me show you his estimate including the water test they just did. Should i put this pump back in after all my filtration like it was? They had a pressure reducing valve before the pump as well. I also was told here that no vacuum breaker could collapse my tanks too....
     

    Attached Files:

  14. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    See my thread below with quote my water was just tested.....what do you think?
     
  15. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Dave, Quote file PDF will not open.
     
  16. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    A bigger tank causes less drop rather than more. However lack of backwash could cause the calcite to block.

    With 3 GPG (per that quote), you would not need a softener if you used a different kind of pH adjustment. A soda ash injector would increase pH without raising hardness.

    I would try to repair what I have.
     
  17. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    try this for the file that want open
     

    Attached Files:

  18. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    Any guidance on how to repair it ?
     
  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Is the tank painted, or natural? If not painted, you can shine a bright light, and see the media level. What is that level? Then backwash. What happens to the level during backwash?
     
  20. davehall83

    davehall83 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2020
    Location:
    front royal, va
    Natural. It is a clack 13x54 tank. I did do this several times during a backwash 2 days ago the tank level stayed the same. I did notice the backwash even after one i just did had turned a reddish color like iron and i saw some chunks of stuff going through the backwash tube. I have it set to backwash everyday instead of 3 days to see if it clears up. The level is 3/4 full because it was just serviced a week ago
     
  21. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    During a backwash, the media level should go up a lot, because it is being fluffed up by the water. Your calcite may have hardened up. People get in with tools to try to break that up. I have not, of course. One thing to do is to measure the flow out of the drain line during backwash. I am not sure what you should expect, but I would guess maybe 10 gpm for a 13 inch tank. If you measure much less, that could have caused your impacted calcite.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
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