Wall Mounted Toilet - Opening a Can of Worms?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by TipsMcStagger, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    With a block wall, you could probably anchor some stout steel L-brackets directly to the block wall, then bolt the carrier to those rather than trying to do it to lumber. You'd need some of that for framing out the new wall, but they wouldn't need to be structural at all, so could be as thin as possible to allow the in-wall tank and drain to fit properly.
     
  2. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    I installed the Toto wall mounted Aquia bowl this summer-I choose to use a 2x6 wall as I was reframing that adjoining wall with a closet . I bought the 2x4 adaptor kit (selling now on e-bay cheap)The thicker wall was really easy to make firm and the drain was super smooth in all that space. I also tiled the wall up about 4 feet. The job came out super -just pay attention to all the instructions-and as Terry said at the beginning figure out bowl height (with sub floor and finish flooring 1st.)
     
  3. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    Well, the contract is signed and the permits have been applied for. But we're still a few weeks from getting started.

    With regard to the Geberit carrier and Aquia bowl, if I were to reconsider installing a Washlet seat:

    1) The Washlet water connection would be plumbed completely independent of the Geberit carrier, correct? Basically, a 1/4 turn valve on the wall, just as if I were using a traditional floor mount toilet?

    2) It looks like there nearly a dozen Washlet models. Are they all physically compatible with the Aquia wall hung bowl?

    3) A huge part of the appeal of the wall hung bowl is the clean lines. I'm afraid the water connection and the power cord will take away from that. Any of you guys have pics of this arrangement?

    Thanks, as always.
     
  4. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    I remodeled our bedroom this past summer and added a 1/2 bath with a Toto carrier and Aquia bowl (not sure why the split brands you are considering??)Anyway in our small house bath we have a full toto washlet seat. It's the one model down from auto lift seat (ours does not lift)
    First off let me add the washlet is great-we have traveled a lot in Asia and they are very common there.We both love it.
    One thing you should consider is they are a bit noisy-you can turn off many of the features on the top of line models knocking down some noise. Noisy meaning they wash the toilet during the night and can be distracting to sleep if to close to your sleeping area. I love ours in our full bath.Which is two rooms away from the bedroom
    The new 1/2 bath which has no door into a master bedroom thats 15 x14 includes this 1/2 bath .I am on the fence about putting one in yet due to noise.I added the water outlet and the GFI to accommodate one later if I choose to add it down the line. I suggest you do at least this in new construction. The cost is nill.
    I did all the work myself with help from a carpenter.I have worked as an electrician and a plumber in my life. I did place a GFI outlet just out of photo to the left of bowl and did put a capped brass outlet thru tile wall. Tile is clear thin colored glass capped with brass to agent brass fixtures and matches our mini sink, I did hire out a tile setter after installing the cement tile backer.
    I put a ball valve shut off in closet behind toilet in a small access box with metal edge in the sheet sheet rock in the closet. Held by two screws as I wasn't to shut this off when I have to charge my calcite system to protect my copper pipes from my mineral free water.This keeps the calcite from clogging the tank inlet which can happen in 1st 24 hours from charging the calcite tanks. Anyway
    As you can see from out washout there is a cord which can be wiped up tight with some white tie wraps and the same is true with the flexible indeed water supply. Really after its in you never notice this again. I think that a non issue really. Rough it all in and add it later if you wish.
    Mark
     

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  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Thanks for the pictures. It turned out very nice. :)
     
  6. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    Based on my research, the Geberit carrier is one of the best available and is compatible with bowls from several manufacturers. That's why I'm choosing to use the Geberit carrier and the Toto bowl.

    Interesting...I travel for a living and have used these seats in Europe and Asia, though I have never experienced them passively running cycles. The toilet will be just feet from my bed. The noise of cycling would definitely be undesirable. Do all of the Washlet models run cleaning cycles when not in use?

    You're right, it's minimal cost to rough-in the outlet and the water connection. I might go ahead and do that.

    How much thicker/taller are the Washlet seats vs. a regular seat? Obviously, once the carrier is installed in, the bowl height cannot be adjusted. Will switching from a regular seat to a Washlet significantly raise the seated height?

    Thanks for the info.
     
  7. ss3964spd

    ss3964spd Member

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    It sounds like you're considering the C200, and it just so happens I have one. Below is a copy and paste from another thread I replied to on here, and I've added a bit more. I don't remember if there are 2 versions; one for a round bowl and one for an elongated bowl. You'll want the elongated, and of course the elongated Aquia.

    Recently installed a Toto C200 as part of a complete master bath remodel. It is perched atop a Toto Aquia 1.6/0.8 wall mounted bowl hung on a Geberit carrier (the plumbing connection between the two was a headache for a noob like me. I'll get to that.).

    I don't know what the feature differences are between the G400 you're considering and the C200. I do know the C200 has an in-line water heater which makes the physical dimensions of the whole unit smaller, sleeker. Heated seat (soft close but not motorized), heated air dryer (if you have the time to wait), various spray patterns, adjustable pressure and temp, memory for two different set ups, wall mounted remote (I didn't care for the seat side mounted set ups). Also has the bowl pre-wash down. The seat might be a little thicker due to the heating element but it's negligible.

    Everyone's bum is different, but the C200 works well for us. I sometimes shift forward a bit to ensure...thoroughness but that's about it. Spouse has no issue with it. The bowl wash down does seem to work quite effectively but, again, different people present different....challenges.

    It makes noises that I don't understand. For instance, after any usage, even after just sitting on it, it emits 3 short "hums", each spaced...I dunno, maybe 20 seconds apart. Then they stop, but the unit isn't finished yet because there remains a very, very quite but persistent hum, almost sounds like a very low speed cooling fan. Though I've not timed it, it does carry on for probably over 30 minutes. The good news is unless you're listening for it you're not likely to notice it, and you definitely won't if you're in an adjacent room. Regardless, mine does not run any wash cycles at any time other than when you first sit on it. Ever.

    Why, whyyyyy Toto doesn't make these things with field replaceable power cords is a mystery. My unit came with a 3.5-4' long cord. If you're doing a extensive remodel, or a new build, and put an outlet close by, you're then left with a bundle of cord. Both Toto and Geberit specify where to place the outlet in the install instructions for their respective carriers but there is no physical reason you have to put it where they say, so long as it's within reach of the cord. If you do put it where Geberit says you have to deal with the excessive cord length in one way or another. I ended up cutting/splicing/soldering/and white heat shrinking mine.

    As well, both Toto and Geberit specify where the water connection needs to go for their carriers, and Geberit offers a bidet water connection kit (Geberit does sell bidet seats in other parts of the world, but not in the US. Go figure.) The kit P/N is 249.801.00.1. The assembly consists of a braided SS hose, a mounting plate, and a 1/2" female opening - it's all one piece. The hose snakes up though a plastic conduit that's already installed on the carrier, and connects to the tanks' integrated water shut off valve via a "Y" adapter (comes with the kit). Geberit sells a shut off valve for the outlet connection but don't bother, because...

    ...the Toto bidet water supply hose connector is proprietary. It is not a standard 1/4" screw on affair so you cannot use a typical off the shelf 1/4" angle stop. You MUST use their special valve, P/N THU468 I believe (I don't recall if one comes with the C200). If you call Toto, as I did, they'll tell you that's the valve you need, but they don't tell you that you also need a 1/2" male nipple (I used a 1.5") to mate their valve to the Geberit connector, and of course the nipple does not come with the valve. But you're not done with the fun yet.

    Look at the picture of the Geberit water supply kit. You'll see the rectangular mounting plate gets attached to the finished wall with two screws. I wanted the supply hose to run a certain way in order to keep things as tidy as possible and to ensure the connectors at both ends of the hose were not under stress, so the Toto valve outlet needed to be "clocked" (mine is at 5 o'clock). To achieve this you'll need to preassemble everything first and mock it all up. I did have a tough time getting the nipple to seal in the Geberit fitting - couldn't quite tell if the threads in the fitting are straight or NPT. Regardless, enough Teflon tape sealed it.
     

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  8. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    Wow...thanks for the comprehensive reply. I'm starting to think I don't want to go down this path, for several reasons.

    Firstly, any noise the Toto seat makes when not in use is pretty much a non-starter. The toilet is just feet from my bed and I know the noise will drive nuts. Even if it's just a hum.

    Secondly, in a million years, I never would have guessed the Washlet seat would have a proprietary valve connection. Had I not read this, I would have simply had the plumbers install a standard 1/4 turn shutoff valve.

    If the wall is open, why would one need to use the Geberit water connection kit (249.801.00.1)? In other words, is there a reason one couldn't install an independently plumbed supply line?

    I'll have to give this some more thought but I'm leaning toward staying with the original plan and forgoing the Washlet seat and associated plumbing.


    EDIT: Below is information from an Amazon review for the Toto THU468 Washlet Connection Kit.

    To clarify, the package contains a Brasscraft G23301X valve, a $10 part, which is 1/2" female "iron pipe" thread (FIP) on the input and "7/16 in. & 1 /2 in. O.D." compression on the output. The output threads are 1/2" male pipe thread (MIP.) Also included is an adapter that threads onto the output of the valve and has a male end with a proprietary(?) thread for the Washlet hose.

    A note in the package confirms that the "D-shaped" Washlet does not require the adapter, since its hose is 1/2" pipe thread. So, if you have the "D-shaped" Washlet, you just need a Brasscraft G23301X valve. This valve does require male pipe threads to thread onto, so if you have a 1/2" copper pipe you wish to connect to, you have to either sweat a 1/2" MIP adapter onto it, or use a Brasscraft G23341X valve, which has the same output as the valve mentioned above, but a 1/2" compression inlet that just tightens onto a 1/2" copper pipe.

    If you have the Washlet with the "proprietary" hose threads, you'll need the adapter from this kit plus a Brasscraft G23341X valve to attach to 1/2" copper pipe, and you'll end up with a spare Brasscraft G23301X valve, included with the kit. Perhaps the adapter is available separately; I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  9. ss3964spd

    ss3964spd Member

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    You can place the supply outlet wherever you wish, so long as it is within reach of the supply hose and clocked appropriately. But placing it were they specify does keep it tucked fairly close to the side of the bowl. I chose the "integrated" set up because it made sense to me. If you plumb you own you'll still need to get the clocking right.

    The proprietary Toto hose to valve connector isn't really a common compression fitting. The inside of the outlet port on the valve is smooth and straight, and the male fitting on the hose uses an O ring to make the seal, and a large-ish plastic "nut" (can see it in the pic above) that screws on to hold it on place. It is a needlessly convoluted set up, IMO.

    I have no idea why the D shaped washlet supply hose would be any different than the one I have. I think that claim is suspect, I'd have to lay eyes on it.

    As far as the noise goes, I appreciate your concern because I'm a very light sleeper and every little noise wakes me up. Aside from the 3 short "hums" that it emits and are over within 1 minute, the very low level hum is barely audible - even standing next to the unit. I really do have to listen for it. If I use the unit and then go about the rest of my bathroom routine I do not hear it. I suspect your head in bed is separated from the toilet by a wall, I do not think you'll hear it. Even if you did it's so low it would be like barely audible white noise. If you have forced air HVAC it's far louder than the hum. And like a lot of other noises in a house, ya simply get used to it.

    In no way am I trying to push this, only providing first hand knowledge/experience and I wish I had known these things so I'd have been more prepared. Just like I'd have liked to know that the thermostat for the heated floor makes audible "clicks" (the relay opening/closing). Only time I hear that is when I'm already awake for some reason.

    To me the juice is worth the squeeze.
     
  10. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

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  11. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    That's actually an interesting option. Thanks very much for posting.


    EDIT:
    In additon to the AP model linked-to above, it looks like the new EP, (which as I understand it, replaces the Aquia) is also configured for concealed lines. Though it seems the electrical outlet still needs to be placed next to the bowl with any of these installations. The cord is draped up from under the bowl, to the outlet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  12. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    The hotel I'm staying at tonight has a a Duravit bowl on a Grohe (according to the trim plate) carrier.

    Nice looking bowl and flushes very well.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    For those who are interested in following along with my OCD; my plumber contacted Geberit and their official position, as of right now, is that they do not have a carrier that is compatible with the new Toto EP/AP 1.28 GPF bowls. I'm assuming that means they haven't yet done any testing.

    My plumber's suggestion is that using an EP/AP bowl with the Geberit carrier (even the 1.28 GPF Geberit carrier) could present warranty issues, so his his recommendation is to avoid this combination.

    Ultimately, if wanting to use a Washlet and have the cleanest install possible, his suggestion is to use the complete Toto AP/EP system, carrier and all. These are only available in 1.28 GPF.

    Honestly, I have no experience whatsoever with 1.28 GPF systems but my mind has a bias (probably an irrational bias) that more water equals better performance, both from the perspective of a larger water spot and a better flush.

    Again, this could be absolutely false, as I have no real world experience. But I'm inclined to stick with the 1.6 GPF Geberit system and the Aquia bowl and forgo the Washlet, despite the fact that the Aquia bowl has been discontinued and will no longer be available after current stock is depleted.
     
  14. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    Well, demo is complete and the new wall will be getting framed shortly. We need to have the toilet carrier on site in order to properly frame for it, so I need to make a decision.

    The two voices in my head are fighting with one another. One voice is telling me that 1.6 GPF will always be better than 1.28 GPF (Quote by Terry Love: "More water always flushes better").

    And the other is telling me I'll regret not wiring and plumbing for a bidet seat while I had the chance.

    So, I think I'm going to throw caution to the wind, take a chance on 1.28 GPF and go with the full Toto system with the new EP bowl, WT173M Toto carrier and the S500e Washlet.

    Stay tuned :)
     
  15. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

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    You won't make a mistake pairing the toto together. I've never installed the toto inwall system but they make quality products in general.
     
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  16. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    It's officially ordered, so no turning back now :)
     
  17. Onokai

    Onokai Member

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    I think you will be happy
    Especially if you rough in the outlet and put a 1/2 bras pipe out the wall and put a brass cap on it. Thats what I did.
    In terms of noise we have the S300E unit it has a fan for order control and the wand will auto clean as well. The noise comes from those features but you can turn them all off to make it quiet.You can shut off any feature with the remote that comes with it.
    The seat does not take up more space than a conventional seat (maybe a 1/2 inch at best) so just figure your height on carrier for a thick wood seat and the washlet will be close. We have a toto wood seat (lifetime guarantee ) on our Aquia wall mount bowl.
    As to the valve size you can just use the adaptor Toto supplied to hook it up to a standard threaded stop.
    If you need to go thru a 2x4 wall you will need an adaptor -I have one for sale cheap on e-bay the past month new in box as I framed up a 2x6 wall instead at last minute-check it out if you need one.
    I like the 2x6 wall as it gives me more space for options and a stronger wall as I also mounted a fan in that wall and vented up thru the 2x6 top plate as well so extra thick helped on that install as well.
     
  18. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    The first stage of rough-in is complete. Obviously, the new wall is not yet framed for the carrier. With the new plate in position, we measured the specified 1 3/4" back from the face of the plate and drilled for the waste line.

    I really don't see how this stage of rough-in could be done precisely without the wall in-situ. So far, so good.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. TipsMcStagger

    TipsMcStagger Member

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    The carrier is installed and it passed inspection earlier today. There was definitely a can of worms here, but it's being worked through (thus far). The two plumbers had never installed an in wall carrier and although the service manager was on site the entire time (I'm very impressed and pleased by this), he (the service manager) only had experience installing Geberit carriers.

    To further complicate matters, this is Toto's newest carrier (WT173M) and there were several inexcusable documentation flaws. Firstly, the WT173M manual that was included with the carrier was missing pages 3 & 4. This is a staple-bound booklet manual. The pages were not torn out. They were simply omitted. It took a while to figure out why it seemed some very critical information was missing from the manual. I finally downloaded a copy from the Toto site and had an "ah-ha" moment where we realized the printed manual was missing pages.

    Secondly, the THU343 2X4 adapter kit includes a full manual for not only the 2X4 adapter kit, but the full carrier installation. We were initially following this manual and even drilled the mounting holes in the studs based on the info in this manual. But after a while, a few things didn't make sense. For instance, this manual depicted a carrier width of 25 3/8". But the WT173M is 22 13/16" wide. We finally realized the manual that came with the THU343 2X4 kit was referencing a different, older carrier. Not the WT173M carrier we have. There are several differences between the older and newest carriers, both functional and dimensional.

    Also, both manuals depict placing the outlet for the bidet seat roughly 12" above the finished floor, which puts it directly in line with the path of the water supply. Again, some problem solving required. And the 2x4 kit included a plastic retainer that was not compatible with anything we had. When we questioned Toto customer service about this, they basically said to just use the parts that fit and they had no explanation as to why that non conforming part was included in the THU343 kit.

    Had the plumbers installed this carrier even one time previously, much of this protracted head scratching would have been avoided. This is why I wanted to find plumbers with experience installing these systems, but in this area, that experience is unobtanium.

    Ultimately, I paid two plumbers for two full eight hour days to complete the full bath rough-in, plus the previous day for the waste rough-in. In hindsight, I should have insisted on a negotiated price for the job. For the three days of work completed thus far, paid by the hour, I could have bought a nice compact car (a used one ;)

    The red circles in the pictures below are 1/2" Tapcons securing sections of 2x4's on the flat to the concrete block wall. The jack studs that are supporting the carrier are nailed into those. I chose not to use the included lag screws and instead through-bolted the carrier to the structure. It's very strong.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
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