Toilet install and flange repair difficult

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sschoe2

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So I had a rocking toilet and wanted to change the no-name one that came with the house and was clogging frequently to an American Standard. I figured the PVC flange was cracked and bought a metal ring and a spanner flange. I could not find anything solid under the lip of the flange to screw to so I decided the spanner flange was my only bet. I managed to knock the SF and brass bolt in there and installed the wax ring and toilet and screwed the nut down. To my surprise the toilet was still rocking. I didn't see any big gaps between the toilet and floor so I took it off again and assumed the other side cracked. No it was fine. The second time I put 5-6 plastic shims in any gaps between the floor and toilet. It isn't rocking but it has a slight bit of rotational play. I am hoping caulking around the bottom of the toilet will eliminate that. Any other suggestions. I have the tank bolts very tight.

Other problems I had: I tried the new cup and screw on caps and found it very hard to get the wrench inside the cup to tighten the nut so I switched to traditional.

I used a brass bolt but the nut had nylon and didn't turn freely so I had to use pliers and hold the bolt with one hand as I wrenched the nut all the way down the very long bolts which was not fun.




Flange1.jpg
 

Reach4

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In general, you should position shims , test for rocking, lift toilet, drop wax, drop toilet on shims.

"I could not find anything solid under the lip of the flange to screw to so I decided the spanner flange was my only bet. I managed to knock the SF and brass bolt in there and installed the wax ring and toilet and screwed the nut down. To my surprise the toilet was still rocking."
1. What is SF?

2. What does your photo show -- is that before or after your metal ring is applied?

3. "I figured the PVC flange was cracked and bought a metal ring and a spanner flange.

4. To pull your toilet down, the ring needs to be held down itself. Alternatively, get a repair ring with ears, screw it down, and let that pull down on the closet bolts. Maybe that "metal spanner flange" is such a repair ring with ears, and your photo is from before you installed that.

5. This might be a good place for the Danco Hydroseat.
 

Jeff H Young

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Well you just are having a heck of a time. those nuts are called nylock use those anywhere but here thats frustrating , there is a plate that can go over the flange and has bolt holes a little farther out that might get a bolt into the floor in solid backing.
if the floor is pretty flat and you have no rocking the existing should work with a good caulk job
 

sschoe2

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Yes I was looking at the Oatey Red one that has screw bosses out further. I couldn't find anything solid under the lip of the flange to screw anything to. SF=Spanner Flange It is this one

I didn't think it would be necessary to secure the spanner flange under the flange as it just needs to prevent the bolt from pulling up. I found this video by steven lavimoniere
 

Jeff H Young

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I see what you got here now and The pvc flange on top is great but for best results clean the cast iron and use silicone in between also place nuts on top of the plastic (not those nylocs)
 

sschoe2

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The house is 2004 so everything was PVC, no cast iron. In the Video Steve has a cast iron Flange he is repairing. The Spanner Flange was metal almost all the repair products are metal. I assume that the toilet can just as easily rotate in the original flange channels so securing the spanner flange isn't necessary? The fact it is tucked under the lips of the original flange should keep it and the bolts from pulling out.

The Nylocs came with the brass bolts I found at the hardware stores along with that stupid cup and screw on cap. I knew better than to use those treated steel bolts they sold as I will not be able to replace the bolt on that side in the future should they rust out.
 

sschoe2

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I am just not sure why it is still able to rotate a very slight bit when I apply a significant force. I am hoping a good bead of silicone will help it not want to rotate at all. However it does not rock anymore when someone sits on it.

I saw Steve in the video used a cedar shim. I was concerned anything wood would rot out and turn to moosh over time so I used plastic.
 

John Gayewski

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I like to use composite simms. The toilet shimms are generally too soft and the rock doesn't go away, but they do make some very hard plastic shimms for toilets.

The rotation I would call normal as the toilet itself has slotted holes. The caulk should help.
 

Reach4

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I am just not sure why it is still able to rotate a very slight bit when I apply a significant force. I am hoping a good bead of silicone will help it not want to rotate at all. However it does not rock anymore when someone sits on it.
It is the flange or repair flange's job to pull down on the toilet. However you need something to be pulling that flange down. On second look, I see there is a drywall screw at the 6 o'clock position. The others may be covered with wax. so anyway, if you gently pry up on the flange, it should not move up. If it does, hold that flange down better.
 

Jeff H Young

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get rid of those bolts , nylocs , and whatever rinky dink screw caps this is just making it harder on you plus the bolts are plated? oh hell no LOL... if its set never mind but hoping the caulk takes care of everything !!
 

Eman85

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I'm not a plumber. In the first picture the flange does no appear to have any screws at all securing it to the floor. There should be screws in the countersunk holes that would secure the flange to the subfloor. If you can't get screws to hold you will have to go under the floor. I've used a piece of plywood with a hole for the pipe cut in half and slide each half under the flange and around the pipe and screw the flange to it.
 

Jeff H Young

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Its nice to secure the spanner but not imperative. of cource the flange should be secure working on existing old plumbing requires a degree of compromise yes all closet flanges should be fastened including those on concrete then there is real world and if its solid its often ignored
 

Unmesh

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I have a similar enough problem that I'm not starting a new thread; hope that's okay.

We had plumber come in to run a long snake in a toilet drain for which he had to take out the toilet. When putting it back, the bolt came off the flange which was beginning to rust. He then took off the flange to replace it and pointed out that the subfloor had become too soft to hold in the flange so he stopped.

His recommendation is to find someone to replace the sub-floor after which he will replace the flange and the toilet :-(

I'm hoping there is something easier that can be done, at least in the near future, since the bathroom has a tile floor. Maybe something like Eman85 suggests above?

The drain is PVC, if that matters.

Photo attached.

Thanks
 

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John Gayewski

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No. You need to carefully remove the tile or find the same tile and fix the floor. You might thank yourself and find that the floor is really bad under there. This happens a lot. A leaking wax ring will ruin a floor and sometimes people don't even know it's happening.
 

Unmesh

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No. You need to carefully remove the tile or find the same tile and fix the floor. You might thank yourself and find that the floor is really bad under there. This happens a lot. A leaking wax ring will ruin a floor and sometimes people don't even know it's happening.
I will find someone to do that. Should I have them pull the other toilets for inspection too?

Thanks
 

John Gayewski

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I will find someone to do that. Should I have them pull the other toilets for inspection too?

Thanks
If you feel like there's a chance your other toilets are leaking. Like if they feel loose at all or wiggly I would. If they are solid and no sign of water I'd say your probably good.
 

Unmesh

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I found someone who will do it but said I'm responsible to find replacement tiles for any that break in the process. I have no idea whether I will be able to find matching ones even though they are plain white :-(
 
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