Toilet, 3 inch, dog leg 15 inch from wall…Question

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TheGreek

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I have a toilet that is to be moved A few feet down the wall. The existing pipe, a 3 inch ABS pipe, runs in cavity made by the second floor truss bays. The truss members cannot be cut. The pipe runs to the edge of the bathroom and then drops down and interior wall to the ground floor.

THe existing pipe center line is 12.5 inches from the existing stud wall (sheetrock off). I need about a 15 inch center. The current length of the pipe is about 4 feet. The final total length of the pipe will be 90 inches. I measured the top of the pipe at the drop and it is 6.25 inch below the deck. I did the slope measurements and I have the room within the bay. I also stuck coupling with a 2 inch tee and I can make the 45 degree or better angle to back haul a parallel vent line.

I do not want to use and off set toilet flange. We are re-creating a 1933 bathroom with all original fixtures (I know, I know).

I have been strongly advised by some folks that deal in old fixtures to use a full 4 inch flange not a 3/4 flange as turbulence can cause issues with the larger water dump At the bowl.

That can be done with one of the big cast iron flanges an ABS fitting, although how to glue it is masking me wonder. The nipple on the underside of these old “Standard” toilets are much longer than the newer ones. It may be that the wax seal is supposed to deal with that issue.

What I really need help with is the 2 inches more I need from the wall. I see that there are 2.5 inch “doglegs” made of PVC in 3 inch pipe. That would solve the problem. I also see that Oatley makes a PVC to ABS transition cement to mix PVC and ABS.

My question is:

Should I place the dog leg as close to the end where the pipe head from horizontal to vertical, in the middle or just below the toilet after the 90 ? My existing plan was to use the 3 inch coupling with 2 inch tee for the vent to couple the main 3 inch line. That would be within 5 feet of the toilet and meet code. If anyone every looked at it :)

This room is going to get a extra layer of plywood, then a mud job then very expensive old school hex tile. I never want to have to tear it up.

Thoughts and ideas?

Thanks, James

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wwhitney

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On the flange, you can use a 3x4 hub x spigot reducing closet bend, along with a 4" hub closet flange. That should all be available in ABS, with preferably a stainless steel ring on the closet flange.

On the vent, it has to be within 72" of developed length from the closet flange, and you need to take it off via 3x3x2 wye or combo, which has to be vertical or rolled no more than 45 degrees off vertical, and the vent has to stay vertical (meaning at least 45 degrees above level) until at least 6" above the fixture flood rim. [So if that 3x3x2 heel inlet quarter bend (equivalent to a 3x2x3 san-tee) is currently a WC dry vent takeoff, it's not compliant, as the vent goes horizontal below the fixture flood rim.]

On the 2.5" additional offset you want, you have such a long horizontal run , just use (2) 22.5 degree fittings with a short section of pipe (I think it will need to be 4.9" long). As to where to put it, anywhere that is convenient, either upstream or downstream of your vent takeoff, depending on what makes your vent routing easier.

If you are replacing that heel inlet quarter bend with a regular quarter bend, and if it works for your vent takeoff, you can eliminate the elbows by just rotating your quarter bend slightly to be non-parallel with the wall, so that you end up at the offset you want. Or if you rotate the quarter bend 22.5 degrees, and butt a hubbed 22.5 degree elbow up to hubbed quarter bend inlet, you'll end up with a 2-5/8" offset.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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John Gayewski

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I agree with the above. What is that ABS beside your toilet drain doing? You might be able to use that as your vent which will bring present and opportunity to become compliant with code and will provide a system that won't need opened back up. As it stands that toilet vent could/will clog over time.
 

Terry

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Code compliant?
Any toilet using more than 1.28 gallons in California is already not code compliant. A six or seven gallon flush is not even close to compliant.

Fittings come in both ABS and PVC. I see no reason to use transition glue and mix materials.
 

TheGreek

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I am starting to wonder if I am screwed and cannot move the toilet. I cannot cut through the trusses on either side of that bay.

The existing fitting, the 3 inch pipe which drops down and is vented off the top, is in such a place that there is no way to get to that fitting without tearing out walls on the ground floor.

If the 45 degree rule only works if it goes directly up until it is higher than the toilet bowel, then I do not see any way to extend the toilet down the wall.

THe pipe running directly behind where the toilet will go is where the sink was. The plan was to tie into that from mod wall as the sink is within 60 inches of it.

So, unless the assembled brain trust here has a solution I am going to have to tell the wife that we cannot move it.

James

As an aside, I know the one code does not require a vent within 60 inches and the other does…can anyone tell me why?
 

John Gayewski

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I am starting to wonder if I am screwed and cannot move the toilet. I cannot cut through the trusses on either side of that bay.

The existing fitting, the 3 inch pipe which drops down and is vented off the top, is in such a place that there is no way to get to that fitting without tearing out walls on the ground floor.

If the 45 degree rule only works if it goes directly up until it is higher than the toilet bowel, then I do not see any way to extend the toilet down the wall.

THe pipe running directly behind where the toilet will go is where the sink was. The plan was to tie into that from mod wall as the sink is within 60 inches of it.

So, unless the assembled brain trust here has a solution I am going to have to tell the wife that we cannot move it.

James

As an aside, I know the one code does not require a vent within 60 inches and the other does…can anyone tell me why?
The IPC doesn't account for new toilets that shoot water much faster than old toilets. The air displacement is why the toilet needs a vent, but the sink can vent the toilet, so your piping can run horizontally if the sink is there to wash it out.
 

TheGreek

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venting-toilet-wye-horizontal.jpg



Can I assume that the above approach in the link will not work?


My original idea was to do this just in the opposite direction. I could do this and not tie this new vent into any of the existing venting, but run it out the roof on its own. But it would run for about 100 inches before it turned up vertical.

James
 

John Gayewski

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Can I assume that the above approach in the link will not work?


My original idea was to do this Justin the opposite direct. I cold do this and not tie this new vent into any of the existing venting, but run it out the roof on its own. But it would run for about 100 inches before it turned up vertical.

James
Once again and for the last time. Your sink would need to drain into the horizontal vent piping beneath the flood rim.
 

John Gayewski

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Another note if you want a 1930's bathroom you better put it in a closet becuse they were tiny.
 

TheGreek

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I do get that John, But I cannot, as per my PE, cut into those trusses. I am not trying to be obstinate, I just am working with a fair amount of constraints. The wish is to have the toilet on the right end of the room, the sink in the middle as can be seen written on the stud, and the cast iron tub is going to be across the end where the wall is now open to the attic. Also, which is hard to see in the photo is that the vent from the first floor bathroom comes up and ties into the group of vents in the photo.

Attached are a few more photos that may help.
 

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TheGreek

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Our 1922 bathroom in San Francisco is not tiny, not big, but tiny…

I am hoping someone can come up with a solution within the existing constraints, lest I will have to punt and keep the toilet where it is.

This mess is in our future retirement home.
 

John Gayewski

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It looks to me like your sink is currently piped where you would run new 2" wet vent from the toilet.
 

Terry

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A future retirement home with a very low, round bowl.
I would have thought something ADA as you get older. A seat 17" high or taller and the elongated shape has some nice options later on for things like a bidet seat to help with cleaning.

index.php


What I installed for my 79 YO brother.
 

TheGreek

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The ground floor bathroom is ADA with walk in shower and tall toilet for a bad back. We also have a 1/4 bath in the ground floor laundry room. If I can make the stairs to the 2nd floor then I can get into the bathtub and use the vintage toilet…if not, then the ground floor it is…
 

wwhitney

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At first I was confused about the trusses, since floor trusses would typically have plenty of space for pipes to traverse. But I see now that your floor joists are the bottom chord of your roof (?) trusses, which is why you can't drill the joists/bottom chords.

Anyway, you can use the lavatory to wet vent the WC, if you make the lav vent and drain 2". As a wet vent, it can be horizontal like any drain. You have to get the lav drain over the top of the truss bottom chord.

So if you have a vanity cabinet sitting on the floor, the lav drain can traverse over the bottom chord in the toe kick space. If your plans currently don't involve a floor standing cabinet, you'd have to add some other element to hide the lav drain, assuming your floor build up isn't large enough to hide a 2.375" diameter pipe (plus fall). Or else leave the drain exposed, e.g. if you could find some some nice chromed copper DWV.

Cheers, Wayne
 

TheGreek

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Thanks Wayne, That is an option. You know when you look at something for a long time and just do not “see” alternatives?

I think I may be an idiot.

The entry door wall, which is non bearing, is 18 inches (more than 15 from the finished wall) from the toilet center line. I have part of the ceiling pulled as we moved a side wall 18 inches to make the bathroom wide enough for the big tub.

As you can see from the photo, I have the full door end wall open and easy attic access at that point.

Can I vent the moved toilet as show in the attached photoS? I can go up that wall half way, then across to the new stud bay then up through the attic. The horizontal 3 inch would be vented well within 5 feet and that vent would be less than 5 feet horizontal before going up. The old vent at the 90 drop down would be just left in place.

James

index.php
 

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wwhitney

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Can I vent the moved toilet as show in the attached photoS?
If by that you mean with a horizontal vent below the floor, as in the diagram, no. That diagram is obsolete. Horizontal vents are not allowed until at least 6" above the fixture flood rim, as has been discussed already.

Cheers, Wayne
 

TheGreek

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CA UPC 2019 Section 905.3

”Unless prohibited by structural conditions, each vent shall rise vertically to a point not less than 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood-level rim of the fixture served before offsetting horizontally, and where two or more vent pipes converge, each such vent pipe shall rise to a point not less than 6 inches (152 mm) in height above the flood-level rim of the plumbing fixture it serves before being connected to any other vent. Vents less than 6 inches (152 mm) above the flood-level rim of the fixture shall be installed with approved drainage fittings, material, and grade to the drain.”

Does not my problem with not cutting into the bottom chord of the truss to the left or right raise the the level of, “prohibited by structural conditions” ?

Of course what I really want to know, is will it work?

James
 
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