Swapping jet pump for submersible pump + upgrades

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog. Water is life.' started by smo0thie, Jun 7, 2021.

  1. smo0thie

    smo0thie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2019
    Location:
    Henry County, Georgia
    So we recently started having issues with our jet pump and have decided to replace the whole jet pump setup to a submersible pump. I’m trying to get all the details squared away before the swap. Probably should have posted earlier, but I’m just wanting some pointers on a few things.

    The well:

    24” bored well, 50’ deep, 25’ to static water level, 260’ to house + 20’ elevation increase

    Yield and dynamic water level unknown

    Well-X-Trol WX-102 (4.4gal/1.2gal drawdown) pressure tank

    Sta-Rite ALD series water end A.O. Smith 3/4 hp motor

    1” and 1-1/4” poly downpipes

    10” x 55” AN tank w/ 5 gpm backwash

    New setup:

    Goulds 10gpm 3/4hp submersible (already have)

    4” pvc flow sleeve

    sch 80 1-1/4” downpipe (planned) with SS couplings (on the way)

    Symcom 233 pump saver (on the way)

    CSV1A (already have)

    Keeping pressure tank & AN tank


    I have learned that the pressure tank was woefully undersized with the current set-up, but since there’s very little room in the well house, I decided to go with the CSV. From what I gather, it should be good enough with the CSV, but I have been toying with going to a bigger 10gal in-line tank.

    Looking at how the CSV works and the pump charts, it looks like when the water is shut off and the CSV is holding flow to 1gpm, the pressure on the pump side of the CSV will be in the 135psi range. I do not actually know the rating of the poly pipe in the well, but after taking measurements of the O.D., it looks like it’s 160psi poly. With it potentially being 40+ years old and me being new at this, I felt it would be better to go with the much higher rated sch 80 PVC to have a greater measure of safety with the higher pressures caused by the CSV and with any water hammer that may occur.

    So my current hang-up is getting the Sch 80 pipe threaded. I found some at a Lowe’s about 15 miles away and they do thread pipe, but I kind of doubt they have the PVC threading dies (they only actually list that they thread metal pipe). I also am not sure that the workers at Lowe’s really know what they are doing. My other options include buying a cheap Chinese made pipe threader with no PVC dies available, or shelling out $200+ for the Ridgid head with PVC dies and ratchet handle, which I may only use one time. Am I over thinking this? Can you get acceptable threads on PVC with the standard dies that Lowe’s will use or with the cheap thread cutters?

    I am also not sure how deep the foot valve is set in the well. So part of me wants to have a thread cutter on-hand so I can cut and thread the pipe to get the new pump set at the same depth. I have also considered getting one more 10’ sch 80 cut into 1’, 2’, 3’, & 4’ sections and threaded at Lowe’s to have options without having a thread cutter on-hand. I could also set the pump at some other pre-determined depth, but not sure what is common for bored wells, as all the recommendations I have seen are based on drilled wells. Before I re-filled the AN tank with calcite (previous owner let it all dissolve), I didn’t notice any sediment. Is there a general depth guideline for bored wells?

    Another concern is if the pump and wires will be slapping the concrete walls of the well upon start-up and what (if anything) I should do about it. I read one article that recommended using 1/2” poly pipe as conduit for the wires to prevent chafing against the casing, but this was in a drilled well. With a 24” well, would this be an issue? The access hole in the casing lid is offset probably 4” - 6” off the edge of the casing, not centered.

    Finally, with this being my first experience with a submersible, I was thinking of using a safety rope, although I have read on here that this is generally not recommended. But most objections I see are about the pump getting stuck, which I can’t see being a problem with a 24” well. I am just looking to be cautious not only after it’s in there, but trying to figure a way to have the whole thing held securely while I’m threading pipe and dropping it in. I will be working inside the well house with the roof removed to drop the pipe, so it will probably be just me in there with my wife possibly feeding me the next pieces of pipe through the roof. I don’t know how I would hold everything from just the pipe without one of those special vise-grips for downpipe.

    Thanks in advance,

    Jay
     
  2. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    A 3/4HP, 10 GPM Goulds will build 164 PSI pressure. Still 160 PSI poly would be fine. However, at that depth a 13 or 18 GPM in 3/4HP would have been better. It would pump more water, have less stages, so it would cost less and only have 85-100 PSI back pressure. You can also screw sch 80 or 120 together and bend it enough to put in the well in one long piece through the roof.

    The Symcom might not work as it won't let you adjust the amps low enough to work with the CSV. A Cycle Sensor will work if the Symcom does not.

    Be sure and use a flow inducer or shroud in such a large diameter well. And you won't need safety rope if you use good pipe. If you don't use good pipe safety rope is not good enough.

    And yes the 102 tank is plenty when used with a CSV.
     
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  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    I like your plan, especially the flow inducer sleeve.

    Possible PVC pipes:
    solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056 (typically white or green)
    Schedule 40: OD 4.500 ID 4.026
    SDR 35 OD: 4.215 ID 3.890 seems smaller than optimum to me.

    Having a place to tie off the rope would be good, and maybe having something to use as a capstan or pulley would be good. Maybe you could use a winch if you can borrow your friend's off-road jeep.
     
  5. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you pull with the rope and the rope breaks, it makes a heck of a mess. Just get a hold on the pipe to pull it and don't let go.
     
  6. Bannerman

    Bannerman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Tape the electrical wires to the drop pipe at a consistant interval. Leave a small amount of slack in the wires between the the tape wrap locations.
     
  7. smo0thie

    smo0thie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2019
    Location:
    Henry County, Georgia
    Thanks for the input guys.

    Can you school me in this? Looking at the flow chart, the Goulds 10GS07 will produce roughly 310’ of head or 134psi at 1 gpm. Am I missing something? Like I said, I probably should have posted this sooner, before I bought all this stuff. But my reasoning for pump selection was choosing a pump that meets maximum usage needs (14 gpm) @ 30 psi (69’ head) figuring 260’ 1” pvc ~23’ head of friction loss + 20’ elevation + 40’ worst case water level depth for about 150’ head @ 14 gpm. So I selected the smallest pump/motor combo that meets this so my most common usage (3 - 7 gpm) would still be in the efficiency range recommended by the manufacturer. I’m not sure how the CSV would affect this, however. The pumps with those specs were actually more money (at least the Goulds from Aqua Science anyway). I do see now that pressure on the pump side of CSV would be reduced, however.

    Looking at some of the 400’+ drilled well pump pulls, I don’t think my setup will come close to that weight and exceeding the tensile strength of the pipe or rope for that matter. That’s not really my concern. It was more of me not getting proper torque on the pipe and fittings and the pump eventually spinning the fixtures apart (this is my first time doing this), and making things easier for my inexperienced self during install. I was worried about having the PVC bend to the point of breaking and also how cumbersome a setup it might be for my wife to help feeding the pipe. I’ve also been wondering what I do with the rope (if I go that route) once it’s in. Feed it through the vent/access hole in the cap and tie it off? Will the cap seal properly around the rope? I really don’t know what would be best.

    So the idea of the 1/2” poly “conduit” is overkill? The notion of the insulation chaffing isn’t a real concern?

    Yikes. There’s $200 down the tube. Maybe I can get some of my money back. You would recommend the Cycle sensor instead? Will this sense dry well conditions too?

    And if anyone could give some advice on the threading of the Sch 80 I mentioned, that would be appreciated. From the looks of it, if I go with the Ridgid PVC head, it looks like it will take 2-3 weeks to ship.
     
  8. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Yeah those Goulds curves caught me with my pants down. You are using the old chart, which is correct if you are using an older pump. This new chart https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/...GPM, Submersible Pumps Technical Brochure.pdf shows 380' of head, which is 164 PSI.

    The 13 and 18 GPM pumps should be less expensive because they have fewer impellers. But I guess they are not as popular which maybe why. The 164 PSI is not a problem as the burst pressure of pipe is 2-5 times the rated pressure.

    The 1/2 poly over the wire is another problem waiting to happen. Just use Double Jacketed wire and tape with electric tape every 10-20 feet.

    We made the Cycle Sensor because most of the other dry well protectors shut off when the amps drop 25%, and with a CSV a good pump will drop more than that because of low flow, which won't work with a CSV. Dry well is what a Cycle Sensor is made to detect. I have said many times we named it wrong. But it does also look for rapid cycling like what would happen if a CSV failed, which was our thinking.

    I have threaded a butt load of sch 80 PVC with regular Rigid hand threaders. Back then they didn't even make special ones for PVC. You just have to take your time and back it off many times to cut off the excess.
     
  9. smo0thie

    smo0thie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2019
    Location:
    Henry County, Georgia
    I see now, quite a big difference in pressures. Not sure why they changed the design — the older model has a flatter curve which I like better. Looks like I’ll miss my mark of 14 gpm @ 152’ head, but it’s not by much and doubt it’ll be of any concern.

    The problem with the thread cutter is I don’t have even the standard Ridgid head. I’m considering purchasing either one of the cheap Chinese ones, or just springing for the Ridgid PVC head. I’m pretty sure Lowe’s has the machine, and not the manual threader, but I’m keeping my fingers crossed that they can do it and do a decent job.
     
  10. valveman

    valveman Cary Austin Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2006
    Occupation:
    Pump Controls Technician
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The machine won't work. You have to thread slowly and reverse often.
     
  11. VAWellDriller

    VAWellDriller Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2012
    Occupation:
    Mud rotary well driller, pump installer
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I don't use poly much, but in a shallow well, it really is the perfect drop pipe...especially for a DIY installation. Just get 200psi 1" poly...good plumbing supply will have it in stock. For the short run and this flow rate (at most you will have 45' of it)..... the headloss through 1" is minimal, no need for 1.25". Torque will be minimal, wire should be taped tight with no slack; hang assembly near the middle of the well it will never touch anything in a hole that big.
     
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  12. TJanak

    TJanak Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Location:
    South TX
    That's how it is done with the old hand dug wells around here (~48" diam.) that have been converted from windmill to submersible. Granted most are 50' or less.
     
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