Plumbing Design with surface storage. Would a CSV help me?

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MacGyverMan

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I am currently designing my well supplied plumbing system and am in search of information before moving forward.

My system will temporarily supply some RVs, then a 4 bedroom house and some farm animals. So use will increase as time goes. I was planning to use a standard pressure tank system with 60-80 gal tank then to eventually augment with a surface storage tank for the purpose of water security as well as reducing well pump cycling. Much like this gentleman has setup.

This is what I am working with:
- 500ft well
- Static level 135ft
- Well supply 30gpm
- Well pump : Grundfos 10SQ15-330 (1.5hp)
- 1" ID, 200psi, poly drop pipe
- 1" ID poly from well head to pump house 15ft away
- 1" ID poly from pump house to RV/house site 250ft away (slight decline to level)
- I plan to set well pump at 260ft depth
- Generally, not super bitter winters but typically goes to 20 degrees for a week or so each winter

I calculate my THD to be 135ft + 140ft(60psi) = 275ft minimum to 260ft + 140ft = 400ft maximum if static level drops. This does not account for 250' run. At those depths I calculate well pump to supply 13gpm to 9.5gpm.

Questions:
- For plumbing my pressure tank system, surface pump and valves, should I run 1" PEX or 1" PVC? I desire pex for the freeze resistance and desire PVC for actual 1" ID and not further restricting my supply with pex .8" ID. (I do plan to use a 1 1/4" pressure tank).
- Im currently leaning toward PVC and using other measures to ensure pipes wont freeze, however pump house will not be heated.
- What pumps should I look at for my storage tank to pressure tank surface pump?
- How much PSI drop could I expect for that 250ft run after the pressure tank in 1" ID poly?
- I recently discovered CSVs. Other than adding cycling protection redundancy and the benefit of a constant PSI, I question if it further would benefit me due to our water habits. Mom and multiple kids stay at home during the day, thus hand washing and toilet flushing happen consistently throughout the day. I tend to think a pressure tank that can supply 2 toilet flushes and 4 hand washes before cycling the pump once would be better than a CSV that must turn on pump each time one of these are used apart from one another. (only pressure tank will be used for awhile before storage tank is installed).
- How would CSV work with the surface pump pumping from storage tank?
- When CSV limits well pump output, how will PSI increase in my plumbing and drop pipe?
- Is Grundfos 10SQ15-330 compatible with a CSV?
- Which CSV is recommended for my Grundfos pump and setup if they are compatible?

Appreciate any input and perspectives!
 

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Thanks for the questions. Really you have a 39 GPM well and there is nothing more secure than water in a good well. The SQ pump you have is also plenty large enough to run 2-3 houses. Really, if you already have the pump running with a standard pressure tank and pressure switch, all you need to add is a CSV1A to have what is needed to run several houses. The SQ runs great on a generator, which makes a good back up. Not sure you need to set the pump that deep, and a shallow setting would make for a quick pump swap if/when the pump does go out. But the CSV will make it last a long time.

CSV1A with 20 gallon tank and 5 houses.png
 

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If you really want a storage tank and booster pump there are a couple ways to go. First is to utilize the pressure tank system on the pump to use as a backup for times when the cistern pump fails, or you need double flow and run both pumps at the same time.

Cistern Storage Tank with Submersible Booster Pump 2 Homes.png
 

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That SQ pump from 135' static can build 150 PSI on the pipe prior to the CSV. All pipe and plumbing after the CSV will see the normal 40 to 60 pressure with the CSV holding 50-55 PSI constant when water is being used. Yes, the SQ is compatible.

An 80 gallon pressure tank only holds 20 gallons of water. With lots of different uses of water from hand washing to long showers or maybe a few sprinklers there will be lots of cycling. You really can't put on a large enough tank to keep the pump from cycling, and the more users on a system the more it cycles.

I would use whatever tank you already have with the CSV1A. A 10 gallon tank is large enough, but a 20 gallon would be the largest I would recommend purchasing if you don't use the existing one. With a CSV the tank is not the main supplier of water, the pump is. The small pressure tank is used for a hand washing or three, and maybe a toilet flush. But when someone are multiple people start using water the CSV just keeps the pump running until every one is finished and all the taps are closed. Then the pressure tank becomes a mechanical timer. A 20 gallon tank holds 5 gallons of water. With a 40/60 switch and the CSV set for 50 PSI, the CSV will take 2.5 minutes to put the last 2.5 gallons in the pressure tank. That is the timer that is waiting to see if anyone else uses water. If within that 2.5 minutes someone opens a tap, the timer starts all over again. Only when all the water in the house stays off for 2.5 minutes will the tank will to 60 and the pump be shut off. It is usually quite some time before anyone uses water again. Even if 3 minutes later someone decides to use water again, there is 5 gallon in the pressure tank that must be used before the pump will start. Even if that water use is large like a 2.5 GPM shower, it will take 2 more minutes for the pump to come on.

It is hard to explain but the mechanical timer thing means with a CSV there is no way to make a pump short cycle or cycle repetitively, even with a small tank.

 

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The posts for Samantha and Mitchell sound like from the same person? Let me just say that no matter "your watering habits" a pressure tank alone is never as good as with a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV is always "beneficial" and there are very few pumps that are not "compatible" with the CSV.
 

MacGyverMan

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The posts for Samantha and Mitchell sound like from the same person? Let me just say that no matter "your watering habits" a pressure tank alone is never as good as with a Cycle Stop Valve. The CSV is always "beneficial" and there are very few pumps that are not "compatible" with the CSV.

Cary,

I agree, something looks fishy with their comment similarities.

Thank you for the info. I like your second design better for what I need. I can see how the 2.5 min countdown with pump still running waiting for any further water demand helps in reducing cycling. When the CSV is providing back pressure all the way down to the pump to reduce 13gpm to 1gpm there is no extra wear on the pump over time? Is it the same as lowering the pump deep enough that it can only produce 1gpm? Would the back pressure change in my setup with a CSV if it pumped from 260ft static level rather than a 135ft?

So what is your recommendation on PEX vs PVC for tank and valve plumbing in my pump house in regard to ID efficiency and freeze resistance of each?

Appreciate it.
 

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Here is the curve for that pump. As you can see it uses 1.8 HP at 13 GPM. But at 1 GPM it only uses 1.2 HP. The pump/motor actually work easier, draw lower amps, and run cooler, and last longer at 1 GPM than at higher flow rates. That pump can also build up to 500' feet of head, which is the same as 238 PSI. Losing 59 PSI when lifting the 135' from static, that makes for 179 PSI of back pressure on the pipe before the CSV. With a static level of 260' there would only be 125 PSI back pressure at the surface. But it makes no difference to the pump. Yes, the pump just thinks it is lifting from 500', which is counter intuitive but easier on the pump than when pumping 13 GPM from 250' deep.

The CSV1A has a max differential pressure of 150 PSI. So, even with the static at 135' and and 179 PSI back pressure, the CSV will be fine if set no lower than 29 PSI as it wants less than 150 PSI difference.

I like PVC pipe. I am too old to know much about PEX. Lol!


10SQ15-330 curve.jpg
 

MacGyverMan

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Here is the curve for that pump. As you can see it uses 1.8 HP at 13 GPM. But at 1 GPM it only uses 1.2 HP. The pump/motor actually work easier, draw lower amps, and run cooler, and last longer at 1 GPM than at higher flow rates. That pump can also build up to 500' feet of head, which is the same as 238 PSI. Losing 59 PSI when lifting the 135' from static, that makes for 179 PSI of back pressure on the pipe before the CSV. With a static level of 260' there would only be 125 PSI back pressure at the surface. But it makes no difference to the pump. Yes, the pump just thinks it is lifting from 500', which is counter intuitive but easier on the pump than when pumping 13 GPM from 250' deep.

The CSV1A has a max differential pressure of 150 PSI. So, even with the static at 135' and and 179 PSI back pressure, the CSV will be fine if set no lower than 29 PSI as it wants less than 150 PSI difference.

I like PVC pipe. I am too old to know much about PEX. Lol!

Thank you for the details. Breaking down the PSI makes sense. I don't fully understand the mechanics of how making the pump motor work as if it were at 500' is easier on it. Is it less RPMs with those high head pressures and less wear that way?

Couple more questions:
- Should I be concerned with the 179psi in my PVC plumbing prior to CSV where valves are rated for only 150psi?
- I have not purchased pressure tank yet so I can go with 20gal if I decide to go with CSV
- I will initially be running just well pump and pressure tank. Then eventually install and transition to a surface storage tank with surface jet pump. The surface storage tank will be filled around every 10 days with well pump and float valve. If I get a CSV, I want it to be used for well pump and then be able to adjust it for jet pump when it goes into use and not have to move the CSV so I can switch back to direct well supply if needed. So from my diagram below, where should I put the CSV for that?
- I'm looking at the Franklin 3/4 VersaJet pump. The specs are below. Its output psi is much less than well pump. It would be nice to have a more constant pressure in system and less cycling for jet pump, but will CSV be able to do that since it cant output much more than 60psi anyway? Do I need a larger jet pump? I'm planning to set system 40/60 due to long run.
 

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Valveman

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Thank you for the details. Breaking down the PSI makes sense. I don't fully understand the mechanics of how making the pump motor work as if it were at 500' is easier on it. Is it less RPMs with those high head pressures and less wear that way?

Couple more questions:
- Should I be concerned with the 179psi in my PVC plumbing prior to CSV where valves are rated for only 150psi?
- I have not purchased pressure tank yet so I can go with 20gal if I decide to go with CSV
- I will initially be running just well pump and pressure tank. Then eventually install and transition to a surface storage tank with surface jet pump. The surface storage tank will be filled around every 10 days with well pump and float valve. If I get a CSV, I want it to be used for well pump and then be able to adjust it for jet pump when it goes into use and not have to move the CSV so I can switch back to direct well supply if needed. So from my diagram below, where should I put the CSV for that?
- I'm looking at the Franklin 3/4 VersaJet pump. The specs are below. Its output psi is much less than well pump. It would be nice to have a more constant pressure in system and less cycling for jet pump, but will CSV be able to do that since it cant output much more than 60psi anyway? Do I need a larger jet pump? I'm planning to set system 40/60 due to long run.
Well pipe is rated for much more than 200 PSI. Just install the CSV1A as close to the well head as possible with no valves of any kind prior to the CSV, except for the check valve down on the submersible pump. Only the well pipe prior to the CSV will see the 179 PSI, as everything after the CSV will see no more than the pressure switch cut off pressure of 70 PSI.

Very few people understand the mechanics of why a pump works easier and uses less amps as the flow is restricted with a valve or the pump is installed deeper in the well. It is why so many people fall for a VFD or variable speed pump as they think the RPM's must be reduced for the pump/motor to work easier and use less energy. The curve I posted above is at FULL SPEED, and the amps decrease with the flow rate and increase with lower pressure or head. It is counter intuitive and what keeps me in business. If everyone understood a pumps amps drop when running at full speed by just using a valve, I would have tons of competition. As it is hard to understand, I only get the intelligent customers. :)

The same CSV1A or PK1A kit will work with the jet pump, then can be moved to control the submersible well pump when needed. Of course you can do both, like the drawing in post #3. That submersible will build as much pressure as you want, so you can set the CSV to hold a constant 60 PSI and use a 50/70 pressure switch. However, that jet pump, even with one of the first two nozzles, only builds a max of 70 PSI. That means the CSV would need to be adjusted to 50 PSI and use no more than 40/60 setting for the pressure switch.
Cistern Storage Tank with JET Booster Pump (12).png
 

MacGyverMan

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Well pipe is rated for much more than 200 PSI. Just install the CSV1A as close to the well head as possible with no valves of any kind prior to the CSV, except for the check valve down on the submersible pump. Only the well pipe prior to the CSV will see the 179 PSI, as everything after the CSV will see no more than the pressure switch cut off pressure of 70 PSI.

Very few people understand the mechanics of why a pump works easier and uses less amps as the flow is restricted with a valve or the pump is installed deeper in the well. It is why so many people fall for a VFD or variable speed pump as they think the RPM's must be reduced for the pump/motor to work easier and use less energy. The curve I posted above is at FULL SPEED, and the amps decrease with the flow rate and increase with lower pressure or head. It is counter intuitive and what keeps me in business. If everyone understood a pumps amps drop when running at full speed by just using a valve, I would have tons of competition. As it is hard to understand, I only get the intelligent customers. :)

The same CSV1A or PK1A kit will work with the jet pump, then can be moved to control the submersible well pump when needed. Of course you can do both, like the drawing in post #3. That submersible will build as much pressure as you want, so you can set the CSV to hold a constant 60 PSI and use a 50/70 pressure switch. However, that jet pump, even with one of the first two nozzles, only builds a max of 70 PSI. That means the CSV would need to be adjusted to 50 PSI and use no more than 40/60 setting for the pressure switch.View attachment 97998

Great, thank you for the info. I was going to put a check valve at submersible well pump but then found there is one built into that Grundfos pump and was told best not to put another right on top of it. I also see from posts here there is no reason to have one above surface if there is one down with the pump. Would you put a second check valve below the water line or rely on internal one on Grundfos pump?

What is the best way to connect my poly to PVC surface plumbing? I going to do a brass barb on poly but is there a better way than female brass thread to PVC male thread?
 

Valveman

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Grundfos check valves are good. I would not add an additional check valve anywhere.

Maybe use a brass threaded coupling on the brass barb adapter. That way you can use a PVC male adapter instead of female.
 
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