Supressed History

Discussion in 'Ian's Corner' started by fullysprinklered, Feb 6, 2015.

  1. fullysprinklered

    fullysprinklered In the Trades

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    I was a history man in college and thought I knew a little bit. This fellow brings up some things I didn't know about concerning the role of Islam in shaping world history. Interesting stuff. It wont link for me, but the gentleman's name is Bill Warner and he has some videos on You-tube. Take a look.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2016
  2. hj

    hj Master Plumber

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    What they have done in the past is immaterial, because that was a different group of people. What is important is what they are doing now, and today, if you have a Muslim for a friend, you probably do not need any enemies.
     
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  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    I have customers of all faiths and everyone is very nice. My family also is very diverse so I'm used to hanging with many different ideas being discussed at large family gatherings.
    Like hj mentions, what happened in other historical times is not the same conditions and people living now. In the Seattle area I get to meet people from all over the world living and working together. It's kinda nice. :)
     
  5. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    And if you don't have any Muslims you count friends you DO need some enemies? Seriously? Statements such as those seem to try to create enemies out of friends or neutral parties.

    Fundamentalist zealots & bigots of all stripes already have more enemies than anybody could really "need". Nobody needs enemies. Defining all members of a religious or ethnic group as the enemy indicates a need for friends, even friends you may not share religious views with. Perhaps someday you'll find some of those, inshallah.

    Salaam alaikum.
     
  6. DougB

    DougB Member

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    The Muslims (as a group) are responsible for not reforming their faith. A book written in the 10th century, expressing various barbaric ideas, gives 'permission' to violence.

    Islam is not just a religion, it's a religion / political / legal / social system all wrapped into one. It is incompatible with our democracy. Many Muslims in the US, may have discarded the Sharia beliefs, it is still a part of the Koran.

    Think about it: the entire western world held hostage and is spending $Trillions$ of dollars, just to protect us from these Islamic fanatics. We have lost countless freedoms: cameras everywhere, air travel a PITA, TSA, cell phone data collection, surveillance everywhere. All of this caused by believers of one religion.

    Money / time / energy wasted on security, could be used for productive / social purposes.

    This is a Muslim problem. When one looks at the history of Muslim countries, it's obvious they haven't evolved very far, I'm doubtful they have the will to do some hard work on their problem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  7. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Thank you, for the enlightened overview as a well read religious, social & legal scholar. I found it very convincing. :rolleyes:
     
  8. DougB

    DougB Member

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    A typical response by someone who has nothing to say, but feels obligated to discredit the person, because the statement upsets his beliefs. Maybe you'd like to respond to the facts in the statement?
     
  9. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Were there any "facts" in your whining about having to spend money on security and wait in line? Reads like unalloyed invective toward a religion & culture to me.

    There is wide disagreement in Islamic circles about which aspects of Sharia are fully supported in the Koran, many find fault with the "Sharia" being sold by fanatic Islamist groups. Even theocrats in Iran & Saudi Arabia publicly criticize the foundations of the crap ISIS and Al Queda are selling (though there is more support in Saudi Arabia than the rest of the Muslim world is really comfortable with.)

    And in more temperate circles, even what is unequivocally in there isn't necessarily considered applicable to modern life, any more than the minutae of Leviticus is applicable to other Abrahamic faith populations living in modern societies that still have Leviticus in their scripture. I suppose some radicals of those other faiths would prefer it if it were followed to the letter and enforced by the state. Among state actors only Iran and Saudi Arabia have strong Sharia elements to the legal codes, though in tribal regions of weaker states local nut cases will sometimes go there. Afghanistan under Taliban rule was the extreme case, but so what? That's a case a radical theology taking advantage of a political vacuum, not Islam in general.

    Fanatics come and go, but Islamic fanatics really haven't held much political power in the past millenium, and never had the influence on the broader stage that the fanatics behind the Inquisition had (ending barely a century ago), and it's silly to think that their influence is on the upswing, despite the rantings & ravings of the few. Yes, let's look at the history of Muslim countries, in particular the history of north African Muslim countries. Those were the enlightened, educated, and tolerant destination countries of refuge accepting religious minorities fleeing the wrath of the Inquisition, taking in the non-conforming Christians, Jews, and others. Did the political power of the radical intolerant Vatican at that time make Christianity incompatible with modern democracy?

    The nut-job terrorists hate the tolerant Sufi Muslim populations of the world at least as much or more than non-Muslims, and pretty much all Muslims who disagree with them. That doesn't make Islam incompatible with democracy at it's core.

    The country with the largest number of Muslim citizens is India, the world's biggest democracy. But are we to blame all of India's problems on their Muslim minority? The vast majority of India's Muslims are far from radical, but there are some. India's Muslims are more likely to become victims of fanatic Hindus in their midst than they are to become terrorists. (Many of the biggest Bollywood stars are Muslim, some of whom are married to Hindus or Sikhs.)

    Behind India in close second place (or maybe first now, it changes with every census) in Muslim population is Indonesia. Unlike India, it is a country with a Muslim majority. Indonesia too has a history of political problems- not always democratic, but trending that way over time. But placing the blame for their economic & political problems on the radical minority or Muslim culture writ large would be preposterous. Yes, there are home grown Islamic terrorists there, but they are attacking other Muslims. As in India vast majority of the population strives toward modernity, not some nut-case theory of half-baked Sharia interpretation of how life should be.

    By the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index, those two countries which are home to about 20% of the world's Muslim population are nearly as democratic a the US, but not as democratic as Canada or Australia. India scores right next to Israel, Indonesia between Argentina and Poland. OK, not perfect, more democratic than those places like Mexico, or Brazil (or most of South America) , or some EU member states such as Hungary. How "evolved" do they need to be?

    In third place comes Pakistan, also afflicted with a radicalized minority making life more difficult for the majority, and an arguably more flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless. Proximity of Pakistani tribal regions the Afghan tribal regions, and to the theocratic state of Iran has made it more difficult for them, but the vast majority are not sympathetic to the Taliban, or the notion of a theocratic ruling class. The political problems of these regions pre-dates their current nation state boundaries, pre-dates the British and Ottoman empires, and indeed even predates Islam. The political problems and failed states of those regions are a more credible cause for the rise of radical thinking in those area, Islamic or otherwise.

    Communist Buddhist militant groups are in the terror mix in Kashmir, Krgystan, Nepal, and Myanmar, often making Muslims their targets. Shall explore the Buddhist underpinnings of the political philosophy of the Khmer Rouge Communists in Cambodia? That doesn't make Buddhism some sort of flawed religion/culture, incompatible with modernity or democracy.

    Singapore is a thriving modern majority-Muslim country. Being a somewhat autocratic monarchy puts it quite a bit lower on the Democracy Index than Indonesia though, despite being a glittering star of modernity by most other measures. And it's the autocratic monarchy part, not the Muslim majority part that makes the difference.

    Muslim bashing based on the ravings and practices of bad actors working out of failed state zones waving the Koran and a (distorted) Sharia law is cheap & intellectually lazy, despite it's current popularity. You can do better, and for the good of our democracy I hope you do.
     
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  10. DougB

    DougB Member

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    Whining about having to spend money - like a trillion - 10^12 or 10**12 or $1,000,000,000,000 - do you know how much money that is? Can you imagine what could be done with that much money. Also we have lost many freedoms due to increased surveillance, maybe you don't care, but I do.

    To proceed with your lengthy, off topic diatribe:

    You are as much admitting that Sharia is live and well - just to what extent. Sharia is fine in Muslim countries - not anywhere else. There are good ideas and bad ideas. Sharia is a bad idea. I don't care, as long as it's in their country.

    You want to downplay the terrorist aspect of Islam. Well they have an entire army of terrorists - ISIS. There are estimated 35,000 ISIS fighters - drowning people in cages, burning alive, throwing gays off buildings.

    I haven't heard of any Amish plotting to blow up train stations, nor Lutheran's blowing up planes.

    I am not saying that one should discriminate against Muslims because of terrorism, but Muslims are the only ones who can fix this. I haven't heard they have any intention of reform. The reason being is that they would really like to dominate us with their beliefs and Sharia. They just don't say it, and play 'rope a dope'.

    I live in Minnesota, thanks to the federal government, Catholic Charities, and Luthern Charities, we have been invaded by 50,000 Somali's. From my experience, an arrogant, ungrateful, expecting entitlement, Sharia loving bunch. As far as assimilation the women are covered head to toe - talk about suppression.
     
  11. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Sharia is not "...fine in Muslim countries...", only some Muslim theocracies, some local governments in pretty much failed states, and is not part of the legal code for the for the vast majority of Muslims worldwide. Even among the theocratic leaning regimes there is much to disagree upon as to what parts of Sharia are appropriate to apply to current legal structures, or even whether some laws purported to be Sharia aren't really. (I'm not a Sharia scholar, and have no intent to become one, but it's not a simple topic, and not relevant to state enforced legal structures in most Muslim majority countries.)

    The fact that ISIS is full of bad actors doing horrific things (killing torturing & raping far more Muslims than any other religious group) isn't some sort of hot news flash. They (and Al Qaeda) have garnered universal opposition from Muslim majority countries in the region, and worldwide, and are really only supported by the few like-minded radical groups other place. It is Muslim-majority Turkey, Jordan, & Lebanon who are taking in the majority of refugees fleeing ISIS (and the Syrian regime), and predominantly Muslim Iraqis (including Muslim ethnic Kurds) who are the boots in the ground in that fight, along with military support from the Islamic Republic of Iran, and the nearly theocratic Saudis (who usually agree on almost nothing with the Iranians) united in the fight. It's not as if Muslims don't understand they have a dog in this fight, or are merely standing by letting the west handle it. The degree to which the more theocratic state actors currently working against ISIS & Al Qaeda sometimes support terrorism in other places isn't exactly great, but at least they agree on ISIS & Al Qaeda.

    It will be largely Muslims who can and will "...fix this...", just as the British and Irish eventually "fixed" the IRA problems (is Irish Catholicism incompatible with democracy?) Painting Muslims at large with a broad brush as the source of terrorism and Islam as incompatible with democracy isn't helping in that effort, and only plays into the radical narrative that theirs is a broad cultural war between Islam and the world. In reality ISIS participants are merely "legends in their own minds", but if the reaction of the west is to further isolate Muslims it only makes their recruiting efforts easier. The Christian underpinning of the Ku Klux Klan's reign of terror didn't mean it was only up to Christians to solve it, just as it wasn't just up to Catholics to solve liberation-theology insurgency terror problems in Latin America, or only up to Buddhist's fix the radical Buddhist terrorist problems in Asia. Terrorism is not a tactic unique to radicals waving a flag with Islamic scripture.

    If your only direct contact with Muslims is Somali refugees you really haven't seen much- perhaps you should get out more (or maybe even visit a mosque.) Interpretation of Muslim women's modest norms of dress as suppression isn't always well founded (though it can be in isolated conservative groups.) Wearing the hijab did not prevent Benazir Bhutto from becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan- it's not exactly "suppression". Most Muslim women in the US or even the middle east don't choose to wear the niqab, let alone the burqa, and many don't even wear the hijab except at religious services, etc. Many south-Asian Muslim women (like Bhutto) wear the hijab in public, but in urban areas and professional settings many do not. The same is true of Indonesia. Taking at random a crowd shot of Indonesians watching a solar eclipse you'll see maybe 1/3 of the women in hijab, probably not even half:

    [​IMG]

    Somali practices and modes of dress are local-cultural, and somewhat more conservative/modest than Muslim women world in general, as is often the case for small village & tribal type of communities. And just because they are covered up isn't because somebody is making them do it. There is far more personal choice going on than you may be willing to believe. Somali refugees in Minnesota are not the Taliban, or even as coercive as the Ayatollahs. If seeing Jewish men in yarmulkes or Catholics wearing a crucifix don't offend you (and why should it, in a country founded on notions of religious freedom?), Somali women's visible expression of faith by their modesty shouldn't offend either.
     
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  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Could she vote in a general election or drive a car?
    The suicide bomber stopped her altogether.
     
  13. DougB

    DougB Member

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    When? How soon? Haven't heard anything.


    They have been brainwashed since birth.
     
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Read about the "Good Friday agreement". Also see "Bloody Friday" and "Bloody Sunday" while you are at it. Those bombings were not espoused by religion or clergy AFAIK.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  15. DougB

    DougB Member

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    I was referring to the Muslims. I haven't heard of any plan to deal with their radical / fringe groups.
     
  16. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Benazir Bhutto's assassination was local-politically motivated, not the workings of an international an Islamic group (or even an-country Islamic party), but probably committed by those with a religious agenda. The Bhuttos had (made) many political enemies- the country has been screwed up in many ways, many of which have nothing to do with Islam, and a lot to do with local history, politics, and corruption. But there are a lot of Islamic political parties active in the country- it's not easy being a religious minority there.

    Women have had the right to vote in Pakistan since the founding of the nation in 1947, and women have never been legally barred from driving. (Really, you can't just google this stuff? )

    Women driving alone can run into harassment issues, making it uncomfortable or problematic in some locations & situations. There have been women-specific driving schools in Pakistan as far back as the 1950s. Pakistan has never resembled the Saudi Arabian type theocratic autocratic monarchy model, with it's legal curtailment of women's rights (including driving and voting). That's not to say that the cultural sexism of the region isn't still a serious issue, but like India, in Pakistan women have the law on their side, even where/when local cultural sentiments are against them.

    Asserting those rights isn't always easy, to be sure, and in the tribal regions it could be dangerous- as dangerous as African Americans asserting the right to vote in some parts of the US 50-60 years ago. And in the areas bordering the tribal regions in places where the conservative Islamist parties rule, local governments they are actively working to take the voting rights of women away (without much reaction from the district courts.) But that hasn't stopped women from running for office, even in those areas. The attempts to deny women the right to vote in those districts was a hot topic last year, and the election commission even got involved. (I didn't follow the court cases, but you can probably google how it all worked out.)

    While your at it, it's not tough to find evidence of clerics who supported the IRA, if not specific bombings, but sure, to be fair the IRA isn't an organization that tried to rationalize terrorist activity with some twisted interpretation of scripture, the way ISIS does. Like most problems in the middle east, it had a political basis, not a religious basis.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  17. MNshowerdude2

    MNshowerdude2 not to be confused with showerdude, im showerdude2

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    good times in here.....
     
  18. fullysprinklered

    fullysprinklered In the Trades

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    Dana, you're delusional. THE most important thing about the US is the fact that it represents a break from the old world. People with gumption, ambition, courage, and brains finally have a place they can go to fulfill their dreams and make use of their talents and capabilities. It's happened over and over again that talented people have come here where they have a dog's chance of having their dreams come true through hard work and talent.

    My people were in Jamestown by the middle 16oo's. Of the first 10,000 people to settle there, there were 2,000 survivors. They died of disease, starvation, and Indian attacks. But they kept coming. They came to be free of the restrictions of the old world. To have a chance to work hard and have something of their own . They came to get away from people like you.
     
  19. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    People came to Jamestown for purposes of establishing empire, real estate, mineral & agricultural wealth, 'ceptin' for those who were brought there as indentured servants, and other were motivated by getting a free free pass out of jail by agreeing to emigrate.

    People came to Plymouth to be able to practice their restrictive paternalisitic cult religion unmolested by the more progressive government & attitudes in the Netherlands, who took issue with their (mis)treatment of children & women. (They originally left England due to conflicts with the dogma & practices of the Church of England).

    People came to Florida, Texas and the rest of the gulf coast for the conquest of empire, gold, and other resources, bolstered by the ideology of the Inquisition, enslaving and murdering the locals.

    I wasn't in Europe for any of that- they surely weren't trying to get away from me! :)

    Religious tolerance was a tenet of the Declaration of Independence & US constitution, however true religious tolerance in the US only came later, and is arguably still a work in progress.

    Yes people, including Muslims with gumption, ambition, courage, and brains still come here to have have a place they can go to fulfill their dreams and make use of their talents and capabilities, and that's a GOOD thing. I know and care about several of these immigrants. Branding the Muslims among them as equivalent to the cult followers of intolerant conservative Muslim imams that give them trouble in their home countries would be at odds with the facts.

    Where/what is my delusion, exactly?

    Intolerant sharia law conservatives are NOT the majority in any Muslim-majority country and have limited political power in most, the recent history of Afghanistan and the tribal regions of Pakistan notwithstanding, or the undue influence of conservative Wahabists on Saudi civil law. It doesn't take a lot of investigation to figure that out.

    When the Red Mosque Taliban over-reached in Pakistan with armed militia & massacres there were hundreds of thousands of modernist & progressive Muslims protesting in the street, forcing the Pakistani government to use the army to rout out the armed intolerant religious zealots. The mosque's imam, Abdul Aziz, is on record as an ISIS supporter, but he has a warrant out for his arrest in Pakistan, and is reviled by the majority in that country, with people still openly calling for that warrant to be served. Arresting Aziz is easier said than done (how long did it take to get Osama Bin Laden?). Yes, it's complicated, but his fan club is primarily the ignorant uneducated who sent their children to his madrasas out of desperation & poverty, not the vocal & active majority in that (still politically screwed up) country.

    Few would be immigrating to Pakistan in search of religious tolerance, (though in most of the country religious tolerance is the norm), but it's wrong-headed to discourage the best & brightest of Pakistan from making a go of it in the US simply because they were part of the Muslim majority, in a country that has a tiny militant zealot minority whose thinking is rejected by nearly everyone.

    The whole broad-brush anti-Muslim rhetoric is fundamentally un-American, as alien as the sharia dogma of the Taliban.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2017
  20. DougB

    DougB Member

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    Wow - who taught you this self hatred? Or did you construct this in your own mind?

    Everyone else in whole world was wonderful - it was just the people in North America who were awful / hateful.

    Islam is not a religion - it is a political system - from the 11th century. There are good ideas, and bad ideas - Islam is mostly a bad idea. Look around the Muslim countries - cutting of heads / hands / stoning / no women's rights / some places no education for women / polygamy / women can't go out of the home / women can't drive / one can go on and on. Don't forget to include ISIS, nor the car bombs, nor the rapes in Germany and Scandinavia, or the shootings in California, or the night club in Orlando, or the shootings in France, or the Boston Marathon.

    The Muslims must take the Koran, and edit it, a lot, and take out all the Sharia crap, and all the violence against us infidels, and then get their 'Animals' under control. Until then, I hope no more of them are admitted to the US - we don't need them.
     
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  21. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Mosque outside Seattle torched

    (CNN)A mosque was badly burned outside Seattle early Saturday, and police believe the fire was intentionally set.

    The incident occurred in Bellevue, Washington. No one was in the Islamic Center of Eastside at the time and no injuries were reported.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/15/us/washington-mosque-arson/

    I grew up in Bellevue. You can find bad things happening anywhere, even the city where my father was mayor and later a judge.
    I went to High School in Bellevue, and yes, sometimes you have people doing bad things that should not reflect on everybody. I think that was what Dana was talking about. I have customers from all faiths and religions.
     

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