Help please! Chlorination system is busted, have bacteria/unsafe well water, looking for replacement solutions.

[Smokeykurt]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forums, so if this is in the wrong place, feel free to move it or let me know!

To start off, my home has/had an older chlorination system consisting of a pump, tank for the chlorine/water mix, 120 gal retention tank and a whole house carbon filter. The system was probably about 20-25 years old when I bought the house, and is pushing 30 at this time. The chlorine pump doesn't appear to be working correctly anymore (even after I've previously replaced the kopkit) and the 120 gallon retention tank is leaking substantially (I've had to put it in bypass the leaking is so significant).

Looking at the price of a new 120 gal retention tank (and the systems age), I'm strongly considering a new system (instead of replacing the old).

Note: I already have a functioning water softener that I installed 4-5 years ago, and it appears to be working. The carbon filter I had rebedded, maybe 4-5 years ago, and I think it is working (although the head unit is older for sure).

Here's my current water situation from tests (water from right after bladder tank) I've had completed thus far:

Total Coliform: Presence (fails PA DEP standards)
E Coli: Absence
Iron: 2 ppm Iron
Hardness: 8 grains hardness
Iron Algae: Likely present, I'm seeing a film in the back of a toilet tank and some white floating stuffs
The local place I had test it, I thought would include Manganese and such, but it didn't.
Note: 2 bathrooms in the house, and we use a lot of water (5 in the family, and a friend currently staying with us)

I was originally hoping to maybe just do an AIO with ozone (with my already existing softener), until the bacteria test came back...that complicates this more than I was hoping. Ideally, I'd like to move away from chemicals, but I'm not completely opposed to a new chlorine system (or me repairing it if its worth it).

Here's my current thoughts for a system layout:

Well Pump -> Bladder tank -> AIO (with ozone) filtration system -> Whole House Carbon Filter -> Water Softener -> Inline 5 micron sediment filter (for UV light essentially) -> UV light

Some questions I have:
Does UV handle coliform bacteria (my biggest concern next to the iron) well? Stuff I've been reading online seems to indicate it does. Is Chlorine better or are they essentially both viable?

The UV system appears to indicate I need an inline sediment filter (5 microns). Are their affordable/recommended inline filters that have higher than 5gpm output once the filter media is in place? Is this sediment filter really needed? I had talked to a local water place and they didn't bring up a sediment filter when talking about their UV system. I hate the idea of reducing my gpm to 5gpm, although I would be lying if I said I knew what my house gpm currently is. haven't had issues in that regard and never had to think about it lol. is 5gpm good or bad?

Should I remove the whole house carbon filter (with head unit etc.) or leave it in place since it appears to work?

Am I putting the sediment filter in the wrong place? I see a lot of folks say to do it right after the bladder tank (and before everything else), but the only sediment filters (20 inch) at 5 microns I'm seeing appear to reduce things to 5 gpm. The AIO filtration with ozone system I'm looking at (13 inches wide, 2 cubic feet) appears to indicate a required gpm of 7.5 for backwash proposes. So I'm intentionally thinking of putting the sediment filter right before the UV system (and after everything else). Was thinking maybe I wouldn't need to change that filter as often then as well (although that's simply bro science in my head possibly). Or should I put it at the beginning and size the AIO down to 1.5 cubic feet (which can handle 5gpm for backwash)?

Is it ok on this forum to reference other products I'm looking at? brands? show some of the links of the products I'm considering online? I don't want to inadvertently break any forum rules, but I am also curious if the products I'm looking at have a good or bad reputation...or if folks would suggest others or ordering them from other places. I have a lot of plumbing specific experience, but not as much experience with well water treatment products as I would like.

What are folks thoughts? Does the above make any sense at all or should I rethink trying to get more age out of my currently not working chlorine system? Is the above system comparable to a chlorine system? Is there another system I'm overlooking? Like I said, I'd like to get away from chemicals if I can, but I could theoretically also look at new chlorine systems. I dunno. I'm bummed about the bacteria test (now the family is currently drinking store bought water). Thought I had it all figured out. Any help/suggestions much appreciated!

 

[WorthFlorida]

You need to use a local company. They will know what works best for your problem water. It'll probably won't be cheap but it will be safer than trying to build one from on line sellers. You'll get some warranty and support if problems arise later.

Sorry I could not answer your questions but a local company probably know the well water in your area and should recommend the proper setup. They do not want returned calls so usually they use equipment that last and able to get any parts if ever needed.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

Chlorine injection is often to treat the iron more than make the water safe to drink.

Many positive coliform tests come about because of contamination during sampling. There are techniques.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ is my well and plumbing write-up.

A 5 micron filter is needed if you use UV. 5 gpm should be no problem if using a 4.5x20 cartridge. The purpose is to make sure there are no particles for bacteria to hide behind. But if you have a deep well with a pitless, I'll bet that sanitizing will solve your coliform problems long term. Redo if you get well work done.

If you have a pit, I would deal with that by getting the casing extended above ground, and a pitless installed.

I sanitize about every 3 years, but not for coliform. I want to kill off IRB and SRB, which are not harmful to drink. They do contribute to some iron slime and H2S respectively.

 

[Smokeykurt]

Hi Worth,

I appreciate the input, but I have actually gone to my local water experts (Agway folks being the most helpful in this instance). They're the folks I paid for the water testing and had previously installed the chlorine system quite some time ago. The system layout in my first post is essentially what they were recommending (although they didn't actually mention the sediment filter, maybe that would be a part of their UV install possibly however and they just didn't mention it). The specific AIO filtration system they use, and the UV system are available online and I can get them around 1.2k cheaper (I'd have to do the install, but I'm a pretty capable plumber and that is not an issue). I also went to the only other water folks local in my area, and they tried to sell me a significantly overpriced chlorine system...very sales like, sort of like the old school rainsoft resellers. That was before I even had a not great bacteria test. So no thank you to them.

Reach,

My well is pitless (I believe) and has an above ground casing. I'm assuming it was installed with the house, which would put it ~30 years old. Aside from that I don't know much about it (guess I haven't thought about it much) It hasn't been shocked since I bought the place (within the last 5-6 years), and uncertain last the previous homeowners had (if at all). Regarding sample contamination...I'm not sure what else I could do to not contaminate it. I used the sealed container from the Agway folks, had previously sanitized my hands, had the water run a good 5 minutes before collecting the sample, and I got it to the lab folks within an 8 hour period. The water was tested well before the 24 hour mark they referenced. Think I should shock and do another bacteria test before committing to a system?

Getting late, but I'll read your provided link sometime tomorrow once I'm back from teaching.

For the sediment filter (and apologies, I'm not particularly that familiar with them), the Iron filtration AIO/Ozone system indicates it requires 7.5 gpm for the backwash...so I'm hesitant to put the sediment filter before everything else with that in mind. Are you saying you think I could put it before the AIO without issue? Or am I misunderstanding? Where to put the sediment filter and if it will have enough gpm for the backwash are some of the bigger questions I have for myself lol.

Thanks for the input thus far folks. Appreciate it.

 

[Reach4]

My sanitizing procedure may have some overkill, but in sanitizing, I like overkill. I want to avoid underkill.

If you do decide to do that, it takes time to get the pH meter (often bundled with calibration buffer) and high-range chlorine test (but a restaurant supply may have those on the shelf). Pool stores have low-range chlorine strips. Low range strips could be useful to see if you have flushed enough at the end, but your nose can tell you that too.

A commercial well service would not use my procedure, because it takes a lot of time. If a pro want the same effect, he would have to bring a tanker truck of treated water, and drop that down the well, while circulating to also get the piping. That provides the flooding volume, that simpler methods do not provide.

Your AIO filter might do better with more flow than they say. So a cartridge filter before that I would avoid. If you have an unpainted AIO tank, you could shine a bright light thru the tank during backwash. Be sure that you are getting bed expansion.
Maybe a bigger wye filter for course stuff could go before the AIO. But I would think (if you actually need it) the UV would go after that.


These all describe methods to avoid contaminating the sample:
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/331-225.pdf
https://axs-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/TotalcoliformInstructionspdf.pdf
https://www.renogov.org/DocumentCenter/View/3801/KSU-Taking-water-samples-MF963
https://servitechlabs.com/Services/Water/WaterSamplingProcedures/tabid/128/Default.aspx

 

[Smokeykurt]

I read (and bookmarked) your post, and that indeed seems like a surefire way to sanitize the well system! Very in depth and I do think something I would like to do at some point. Think my biggest issue will be getting that amount of water. My nearest neighbor is pretty far off and in that regard, we rarely talk (although they are super nice). My water PH is 7, not sure what the neighbors is. I'll also have to calculate my well size/depth (currently I'm unsure). I might just end up putting a UV light in (with a bypass) anyway, since they're not crazy expensive, and then sanitize the well at some point after that. I have never sanitized this well, so this seems like something I should definitely get in the habit of doing at points.

The water AIO option(s) I've looked at are not clear tanks. So I think your post solidifies my decision to have the sediment filter at some point after that in the system to avoid possible issue.

For the correct sample collection per your links, I think I did everything right, except I did utilize a sample point that was not frequently used (I have a point right after the bladder tank that is before any systems, which I used). I'm starting to wonder if I should have used a faucet upstairs, and then put everything in the system into bypass instead. Hmmm, makes me wish the bacteria test wasn't 70 bucks through Agway lol. Not a big deal or anything, just sounds like I'll want to have this test done more than I originally thought.

For testing the water, if anyone has any suggestions for economical means of doing such, I'm all ears.

 

[Reach4]

"Think my biggest issue will be getting that amount of water. "
It comes from your own well. You use storage. Garbage cans with can liners, or water bed liner, etc. I would already be circulating the chlorinated water in the well before filling the storage.

more economical:
https://www.hach.com/p-presenceabsence-test-12pk/2323212 is one coliform test. I think you just put test water into the bottle, Put the bottle in a suitable temperature. Wait for an interval, and see if something grows.

https://www.zoro.com/lamotte-individual-test-kit-coliform-4-3616/i/G4212801/ seems similar, but cheaper.
https://www.amazon.com/AquaVial-Coli-Coliform-Water-4-Pack/dp/B07623JYGB?th=1

You can Google coliform test kit.

is some quantative test.

 

[Smokeykurt]

Thanks much for the links to the tests. I guess I didn't think I'd be able to do those at home. Pretty neat! I think I've decided to go the UV route for now, and will additionally sanities the well when I get the chance. Thanks for the help bud!

 

[Smokeykurt]

Hi folks, just wanted to update and say I finished my install!

It goes like this:
Well Pump -> Bladder tank -> AIO (with ozone) filtration system -> Whole House Carbon Filter -> Inline 5 micron sediment filter -> Water Softener -> UV light

Appears to be working great thus far, and I appreciate the advice given on this thread. I haven't gotten to sanitizing the well just yet, but it is on my to do list for this spring when the weather gets nicer.

Thanks again!

 

[WorthFlorida]

Hi folks, just wanted to update and say I finished my install!

It goes like this:
Well Pump -> Bladder tank -> AIO (with ozone) filtration system -> Whole House Carbon Filter -> Inline 5 micron sediment filter -> Water Softener -> UV light

Appears to be working great thus far, and I appreciate the advice given on this thread. I haven't gotten to sanitizing the well just yet, but it is on my to do list for this spring when the weather gets nicer.

Thanks again!

Thank you for the update. Most do not update their posts.

 

[Reach4]

They want a 5 micron cartridge filter right before the UV. Suppose a 15 micron particle came out of the softener. A bacterium could hide behind that.

Also note that you will want to sanitize all of the pipes and tanks downstream of the UV, to get the existing bacteria.

 

[JVF]

Just saw this post so this advice may be too late if you haven’t figured it out but could help others. I am having to install filters and disinfection on my water catchment system (Hawaii). I’m Standards based and so I looked at UV standards. NSF 55 covers UV disinfection. There are two classes “A” and “B” and, in terms of disinfection, they specify intensity levels in units of mJ/cm2. Class B is geared towards further disinfection of potable water from municipal sources, etc. and has a requirement of 30 mJ/cm2. Class A is geared towards a non potable water supply such as a well or catchment tank and has a higher spec of 40 mJ/cm2. Class A also has other requirements for limiting flow rate, monitoring, etc.

These figures are affected by flow rate and UV companies will state intensity vs. flow rate. If you get a 30 mJ/cm2 UV light rated for a higher flow than you have then you will see that at your flow rate will likely have a possibility of 40 mJ/cm2.

BUT, most UV lights do not have ANY NSF certification A or B so you are at the mercy of the manufacturer to meet spec. Worse, many of the cheaper ones, even with good specs, don’t have any monitoring capability so you just have to hope it works. It is folly to rely on UV disinfection on non potable water without some kind of monitoring/alarm system. At my flow rate (under 10gpm) it turns out that the cost difference between a non certified but monitored Class B system that would probably produce Class A intensity and an actual NSF Class A certified system was only $300-$400 more. Guess which one I chose? The better UV systems are made in Canada and I chose UVdynamics for their cost and simplicity.


Hope I was allowed to post that. Good luck.

 

[Smokeykurt]

Ah, ok. for some reason I thought it could go either before or after the softener (at least's that's what the Agway guy told me, although they didn't reference a sediment filter in my original convo with them regarding UV, so maybe not the best people to ask lol).

Regarding filters:
I have another 20inch sediment filter a friend gave me that I didn't install. So I'll install that one right after the softener (right before UV), swap the 5 micron filter over to that (since they're both the same filter size). Then I can either bypass the one right before the softener as I plumbed a bypass or put a different micron filter in front of the softener for the heck of it. Any recommendations for an inline filter type before the softener to extend its life if I want to keep it? It appears I don't need it once I have the other in place, but it is already plumbed in so kind of figure why not.

Regarding sanitizing:
For the sanitize part for everything down from the UV, any recommendations on best approach? Or I suppose I could just get to sanitizing the well at this point per previous guidance for the same effect? I did wait several weeks after the new systems were running in place before doing my last bacteria test (which came back absent on the coliform or e coli bacteria front, which is nice). I also drained/flushed the hot water tank, drained/cleaned the RO tank and replaced the correlating filters as they were getting older anyway.

So guess I'm not quite done yet lol. Appreciate all of the advice!

 

[Reach4]

I think sanitizing the well and plumbing at the same time would be good. While UV will stop bacteria from proceeding past, there are other advantages to sanitizing. However that is something that is easier to do in warmer weather.

 

[Smokeykurt]

Think this sanitizing process for UV and after would make sense in the interim before I get the chance to sanitize the well? I'd do it right after I put in the sediment filter housing before the UV install: https://waterestore.ca/blogs/news/disinfect-your-household-plumbing-and-uv-in-8-easy-steps

Unfortunately winter has arrived where I'm at. I'm in agreement that warmer weather would make the whole well sanitizing process much more agreeable, but still want to assure safe drinking water before I complete that if the process linked makes sense. I've had a good water test on the bacteria end since adding the UV, but better safe than sorry I'm thinking.

 

[Smokeykurt]

Well, I've added a 5 micron filter right before the UV, and now sanitized everything after it. Haven't gotten to the well sanitizing yet, but that is now on my spring/summer to-do-list.

Thanks again for everyone's help and input