Submersible Pump Setup Help

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GetBakedCoatings

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Hey All,
I have two issues but gonna start out with my setup description. I am no plumber of course, I am a capable homeowner. I was quoted $4700 for an RO system for my home and decided that I could definitely build my own. So..... $900 later, whole house RO. Was doing great for the last 4 years with no real issues. Anyhow, recently I had two issues and the first one I sort of figured out. Its a bit to read below but I would appreciate any help. Oh and I have done all the routine checks, pressure tank check, water leaks, etc.

1. I have a large 500 gallon RO tank that supplies my house that had a 1/2hp 120v submersible pump and I found it to be endlessly shuttering badly upon start up. After hours online and contacting some local people, found out.....no one had an answer. I replaced the pressure tank, no go! I replaced the pressure switch, no go! Then bought a new in tank 1hp 230v submersible pump, no go! Turned out, $500 later, that it was a $35 filter after the tank, before the house. So here is actual problem: No matter what I have the pressure switch set to, the pressure switch and pump shutter drastically off and on for a few moments at start up and slightly at shut off. Which ensues a bigger problem....

2. I have woken a few times since this repair/install to find the pump running inside the tank and the pressure steady at around 55psi. Sounds kinda like its running in some kind of limp mode. Not as peppy. I did check to see if plumbing was leaking, it is not. I double checked the pressure at the pressure tank, pressure switch is near new, all good!
Here are some things I tried: While running, I lowered the pressure switch settings, does not shut off and or catch up to the setting pressure. I also tried opening as many outlets as I can in the house but since the pump is 1hp, it keeps up at the steady 55psi. The only way to stop this is to unplug it and plug back in and it immediately goes to 65 psi I have it set to and shuts off in seconds.

What I am considering, and im here because its kind of a pain in the arse to put my old 1/2 hp pump back in, is, am I missing a one way check valve for this style pump or other? I did note in some other forum posts of check valves or.....? Pic below is my pump.

ANY help would be awesome!!!! Thank you for your time in reading this mess!

294470818_577967437159714_1168051800063525032_n.jpg
 

Reach4

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I think you have an atmospheric tank, probably filled by a submersible pump down the well, and controlled by a float switch in the open-air tank.

1. You refer to a 500 gallon RO tank... is that after the RO unit? If so, what size is your precharged tank that the pressure switch is at? Or is that 500 gallons the atmospheric tank? Usually when people refer to an RO tank, that tank holds RO water.

The pump you chose seems like a high volume pump that probably normally fills the pressure tank very quickly.

Your pump should have had a flow inducer to provide better motor cooling.

2. So what is the problem where the pump will not build to 65 psi at intermittent times? I can only think there would be a problem with the power, or that the pump is bad, or that the pressure gauge and pressure switch get intermittently blocked so that the 98 (or whatever) psi at the deadheaded pump does not make it to the pressure gauge or pressure switch.

I would check the voltage as close to the pump as you readily can during one of these episodes. The ouput of the pressure switch would be easiest, commonly between terminals 2 and 3.

You might diagram out this system. Is there an iron filter, a softener?
 

GetBakedCoatings

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I think you have an atmospheric tank, probably filled by a submersible pump down the well, and controlled by a float switch in the open-air tank.

1. You refer to a 500 gallon RO tank... is that after the RO unit? If so, what size is your precharged tank that the pressure switch is at? Or is that 500 gallons the atmospheric tank? Usually when people refer to an RO tank, that tank holds RO water.

The pump you chose seems like a high volume pump that probably normally fills the pressure tank very quickly.

Your pump should have had a flow inducer to provide better motor cooling.

2. So what is the problem where the pump will not build to 65 psi at intermittent times? I can only think there would be a problem with the power, or that the pump is bad, or that the pressure gauge and pressure switch get intermittently blocked so that the 98 (or whatever) psi at the deadheaded pump does not make it to the pressure gauge or pressure switch.

I would check the voltage as close to the pump as you readily can during one of these episodes. The ouput of the pressure switch would be easiest, commonly between terminals 2 and 3.

You might diagram out this system. Is there an iron filter, a softener?
I will reply in order as how your questions were asked? ;)
1. The RO tank is all on its own. I have a membrane that makes and puts the water directly to the tank. The pre RO/ water supply to the RO had nothing to do with the problems.
I noted in the questioning that my precharge tank was checked. The pressure is at 38psi.
Unknown of a flow inducer at the pump, its cylindrical and I attached, wired and dropped in the tank.
2. I am on here to find "what is the problem where the pump will not build to 65 psi at intermittent times? " As I noted, I have woken a few times since this repair/install to find the pump running inside the tank and the pressure steady at around 55psi.
As for power, would that be the problem if its intermittent? Its completely random, or at least thats how I feel about it.
Pump is brand new, as noted. pressure gauge is new, as noted. Pressure switch is new, as noted. Voltage is fine, it wouldnt be an issue in the middle of the night with nothing else drawing on it.

As far as a diagram, ill do my best to explain: 500 gallon tank with a pump in the bottom, line out to a pressure switch, then a 30 micron debris filter. Then directly into the house with a specific pressure tank. Wouldnt need an iron filter or softener.
 

Reach4

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RO tanks have a precharge pressure also, but much lower.
So I infer that the tank with the 38 psi precharge is well before the RO system.

2. I will stick with my list of possibilities that I posted in 2. above. Sorry, no special inside or knowledge of a mode. Your pump does not have electronics in it, so it does not have modes. It does have a single device that depowers the start winding, but I cannot imagine how a failure in that would give your symptom.


1. If you had a flow inducer, you would know, because you put it there. It does not come with the pump.

I read "whole house RO" and wondered if you were using RO for showering or flushing toilets. I now expect not.
 

GetBakedCoatings

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RO tanks have a precharge pressure also, but much lower.
So I infer that the tank with the 38 psi precharge is well before the RO system.

2. I will stick with my list of possibilities that I posted in 2. above. Sorry, no special inside or knowledge of a mode. Your pump does not have electronics in it, so it does not have modes. It does have a single device that depowers the start winding, but I cannot imagine how a failure in that would give your symptom.


1. If you had a flow inducer, you would know, because you put it there. It does not come with the pump.

I read "whole house RO" and wondered if you were using RO for showering or flushing toilets. I now expect not.
My RO tank does not have a precharge pressure. I have a membrane that trickles into the tank. The precharge I referenced was for the house, after the pump. I have one for the well, before the RO membrane then one after the RO tank.

Whole house RO typically includes the whole house, yes, showering and flushing toilets is included. :)

And thanks but nothing in number 2 is a possibility. Its literally all new and the voltage to the pump is fine. I literally thought it was a problem like that so I replaced the pressure switch again. They're stupid cheap. It works great 99% of the time. I do appreciate your time in helping me, thank you.
 

Reach4

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If the output voltage (usually terminals 2 and 3) measures 240vac, there is nothing more that a pressure switch can do.
 

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A 1HP, 25 GPM pump is capable of about 80 PSI max. Shouldn't have any problem getting to 65. If it just sits at 55 and runs it is not pumping any water. Turing it off and back on lets it burp the air and start pumping again. My guess is the RO tank is getting too low and allowing air in the pump.
 

LLigetfa

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It is possible for a submersible pump under certain conditions, to lose prime if it takes in air. When that happens, it can dead-head and not shut off. Are you sure the level inside the tank is not getting low enough for the pump to suck air? A low cutoff float switch could stop the pump if the level drops too low. A Cycle Sensor can detect a dead-head condition and turn off the pump.
 

GetBakedCoatings

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A 1HP, 25 GPM pump is capable of about 80 PSI max. Shouldn't have any problem getting to 65. If it just sits at 55 and runs it is not pumping any water. Turing it off and back on lets it burp the air and start pumping again. My guess is the RO tank is getting too low and allowing air in the pump.
But it is pumping cause I can run water endlessly and it just sits and runs and the gauge stays at 55. And I have a low level cut off switch in the tank, it isnt getting air.
 

GetBakedCoatings

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It is possible for a submersible pump under certain conditions, to lose prime if it takes in air. When that happens, it can dead-head and not shut off. Are you sure the level inside the tank is not getting low enough for the pump to suck air? A low cutoff float switch could stop the pump if the level drops too low. A Cycle Sensor can detect a dead-head condition and turn off the pump.
I do have a low cutoff switch, its not sucking air.
 

WorthFlorida

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Cary, on the very first post I thinking it could be a bad start/run capacitor inside the pump. Is there a way to check them without pulling the pump.
 

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I don't think it is a relay or capacitor or the pump would not be running at all. Once you pull the water level in the tank down low enough to cause a whirlpool, the pump will lose prime. After that it is air locked and might pump some but not full flow and pressure until you burp the air by turning the pump off and back on. Easy to diagnose with an amp meter. The amps will drop the same instant the pressure falls off.
 

Reach4

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Once you pull the water level in the tank down low enough to cause a whirlpool, the pump will lose prime. After that it is air locked and might pump some but not full flow and pressure until you burp the air by turning the pump off and back on.
I am mulling that over. Sounded like a myth to me initially. Air lock can happen with a sump pump, but I don't think that happens with a partial flow condition.
 

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Sometimes a submersible will pick up prime on it own after the water level comes back up. But 9 times out of 10 you have to turn the pump off and back on to burp the air and get it back to full production. Sump pumps only have one impeller and they are either completely air locked or not. Submersible well pumps have many impellers, and not all of them are air locked, so it pumps some water, but not much. Would probably prime on its own if pumping out a large valve with no back pressure. But with back pressure from the system the air has no place to go. Impeller type pumps only pump water, not air. So, the air has to burp before the pump starts. Have the same problem installing a new pump with the check valve stuck closed. Can't even get the pump to push the check valve open.
 

Reach4

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So the cure would be to add a float valve that de-powers the pump before the pump starts sucking air.
 

GetBakedCoatings

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Sometimes a submersible will pick up prime on it own after the water level comes back up. But 9 times out of 10 you have to turn the pump off and back on to burp the air and get it back to full production. Sump pumps only have one impeller and they are either completely air locked or not. Submersible well pumps have many impellers, and not all of them are air locked, so it pumps some water, but not much. Would probably prime on its own if pumping out a large valve with no back pressure. But with back pressure from the system the air has no place to go. Impeller type pumps only pump water, not air. So, the air has to burp before the pump starts. Have the same problem installing a new pump with the check valve stuck closed. Can't even get the pump to push the check valve open.
As I mentioned a few times, I have a low level float. It isn't sucking in air.
 

GetBakedCoatings

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If the output voltage (usually terminals 2 and 3) measures 240vac, there is nothing more that a pressure switch can do.
So... I followed up with your voltage concern. Is this possible, and I will do the best to explain. ;) I have my 230 well pump, that supplies all this water we are discussing and the new 230 RO tank pump plugged into the same outlet outside at the water system. Only cause I'm limited to power out there. If the well pump miraculously came on at the same time the tank pump is turning on, could it put my problem tank pump go into this problem? Thinking its drawing power down enough to cause this. And if so, why isn't the well pump doing the same? If any of this sound viable, what's your thoughts on a remedy?
 

Valveman

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The pump is running, not tripping any overloads, so it is not a power problem, not a relay or a capacitor. The only thing that makes any sense is air in the pump. A 500 gallon tank is pretty small. I would raise the safety float switch a little as I still believe the water level is getting low enough to cause a whirlpool and let air in the pump.

Check the amps!!!
 
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