New Pressure Tank Installation

[TW80CJ5]

Hello,
I recently installed a vertical 86 gallon AO Smith pressure tank on my submersible well. Everything looks great, new plumbing and no leaks! Did it right the first time or so I thought! The problem I am having is that it appears that the tank only fills with water to 1/5 capacity (based off condensation line on tank - see pic). The pump only ran for approximately 2 minutes before it cutoff. I verified the pressure switch cuts in correctly at 38 psi and out at 60 psi and the pump works like it should.

Here are the details:

1. Verified No Leaks
2. There is a new 40/60 pressure switch and confirmed cut in and out.
3. 1" water line from well head to tank to the house
4. Submersible pump is wired for 240v
5. Verified 38 PSI on tank

There is great pressure inside the house. I understand that the tank wont completely fill with water, just thought there would be more that what's currently showing. I have bled the water line to the house by opening all the valves and then closing to see if the tank would fill up more but it did not.
What am I missing? Thoughts / Suggestions?

 

[Reach4]

Normally an 86 gallon tank would hold about 21 gallons of water. You could measure that when the tank is at max by turning off the power to the pump. Then see how many times you can fill a 5-gallon bucket.

Looking at the condensation mark will not be a good indication, because the diaphragm will have a dome shape. This picture is from a Well-X-Trol, and not all tanks will have all of these features. This does illustrate the diaphragm shape when full or almost full. Mostly compressed air in the tank.

You can also see https://www.americanwaterheater.com/residential/accessories/pump-tanks/
American Water Heaters is an AO Smith brand.

 

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[TW80CJ5]

This is really good information to know. Thank you for the post! I will test this weekend...Thanks again!

 

[Valveman]

Technically, an 86 gallon pressure tank holds 23 gallons at 40/60 pressure. But that is if everything is set perfectly. You can't get a large enough pressure tank to eliminate pump cycling. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve will stop the cycling no matter the size of pressure tank. But you really only needed a 5 gallon size tank with a CSV.

 

[LLigetfa]

Is that A snifter/check air-maker on the left side of the picture? An air-maker will put air into the water side of the top of the diaphragm which will reduce the amount of water that tank will hold. Air-makers are generally used with a hydro-pneumatic tank, not on a captive air tank.

 

[Reach4]

And even if that were just a check valve, it should not be there with a submersible pump. It does not cause symptoms along the lines of reducing the fill, but it can be harder on pipes in some cases. Depending on what is down the well (thinking of a drain back valve/hole), it could also add air.

It is a shame to have put in a lot of nice work to install that.

With a submersible, there should only be a check valve in and/or at the pump.

 

[Valveman]

Replace that control check valve with a CSV1A and problem(s) solved. You can then get as much run time as you want with that big tank, up to 23 minutes with the CSV set at 40. With the CSV set to deliver a strong constant 58 psi, you will get about 3 minutes of fill time.

 

[TW80CJ5]

Is that A snifter/check air-maker on the left side of the picture? An air-maker will put air into the water side of the top of the diaphragm which will reduce the amount of water that tank will hold. Air-makers are generally used with a hydro-pneumatic tank, not on a captive air tank.

Thank you for the feedback. I knew I should have posted here before starting the project. I inherited this mess from the girlfriend. I replaced everything exactly the way it was previously. So I foolishly added those sniffer/check air-makers. I had never seen them on water systems before and wondered why myself...I will remove them and put in some plugs.Thanks for the help!!!!

Technically, an 86 gallon pressure tank holds 23 gallons at 40/60 pressure. But that is if everything is set perfectly. You can't get a large enough pressure tank to eliminate pump cycling. Adding a Cycle Stop Valve will stop the cycling no matter the size of pressure tank. But you really only needed a 5 gallon size tank with a CSV.

I will order the CSV....I had previously read about them, but didnt want to do anything that wasnt there already....I was trying to replace everything verbatim...Thanks for the help!!!!

 

[TW80CJ5]

Replace that control check valve with a CSV1A and problem(s) solved. You can then get as much run time as you want with that big tank, up to 23 minutes with the CSV set at 40. With the CSV set to deliver a strong constant 58 psi, you will get about 3 minutes of fill time.

I will try to confirm that there is a check valve at the foot of the well. I am reading about the CSV's now. What preconfigured PSI should I get? 40 / 50 / 60 ?

 

[TW80CJ5]

And even if that were just a check valve, it should not be there with a submersible pump. It does not cause symptoms along the lines of reducing the fill, but it can be harder on pipes in some cases. Depending on what is down the well (thinking of a drain back valve/hole), it could also add air.

It is a shame to have put in a lot of nice work to install that.

With a submersible, there should only be a check valve in and/or at the pump.

Thanks for the info!!!! I appreciate it!! I will verify there is a check valve at the foot of the well. It's being recommended that I add a CSV which I most certainly will. Thanks for the compliment !!! It helps for a rookie that doesn't know SH%! Thanks again!!!

 

[TW80CJ5]

I will try to confirm that there is a check valve at the foot of the well. I am reading about the CSV's now. What preconfigured PSI should I get? 40 / 50 / 60 ?

Correction....I was reading about a diff model CSV than the CSV1A as recommended. The website says it can be set from 15-150 PSI.....Recommended pressure for my setup? Thanks again for the help. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Fitter30]

Delete

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the info!!!! I appreciate it!! I will verify there is a check valve at the foot of the well. It's being recommended that I add a CSV which I most certainly will. Thanks for the compliment !!! It helps for a rookie that doesn't know SH%! Thanks again!!!

While we are criticizing your installation, note that schedule 40 plastic female threads are usually recommended against.

https://pvcfittingsdirect.com/sch-80-female-adapters/ would be schedule 80 (which glues onto schedule 40 pipe no problem).
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-435-012SR-1-1-4-PVC-Schedule-40-Spec-Reinforced-Female-Adapter is reinforced.

Also, PVC should be protected from the sun. Latex paint is good.

 

[TW80CJ5]

While we are criticizing your installation, not that schedule 40 plastic female threads are usually recommended against.

https://pvcfittingsdirect.com/sch-80-female-adapters/ would be schedule 80 (which glues onto schedule 40 pipe no problem).
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spears-435-012SR-1-1-4-PVC-Schedule-40-Spec-Reinforced-Female-Adapter is reinforced.

Also, PVC should be protected from the sun. Latex paint is good.

We will be building a pump house around it in the next 4-6 weeks. I will find a way to keep the pvc covered until then. Thanks for the info!

 

[Reach4]

Another alternative is to screw a 1-inch MIP plastic adapter to the inside threads on the tank tee. However https://www.rcworst.com/Shared/content/mfr/boshart_industries_inc_bii/docs/biitankteeinfo.pdf says Bronze "Can be split when female threads are used, we
recommend using male threads on tee wherever possible."

So don't over-tighten. Using both pipe dope and PTFE on pipe threads avoids leaks with a little less tightening.

 

[LLigetfa]

Thank you for the feedback. I knew I should have posted here before starting the project. I inherited this mess from the girlfriend. I replaced everything exactly the way it was previously. So I foolishly added those sniffer/check air-makers.

Do keep in mind that the snifter/check is only half of the air-maker system. The other half ( bleeder) is down inside the well casing. Sometimes the bleeder is simply a hole drilled and not a proper bleeder. Bleeders come in two versions, (metal or plastic) and may have to be removed when installing a CSV. Removing the bleeder requires the pump to be pulled at least part way out.

 

[TW80CJ5]

Morning Gents,

Reporting back with an update. After the installation of the tank etc, we started experiencing sputtering from the inside faucets / valves, especially on the cold water draw. I drained all of the lines numerous times from the high side shower faucets to low side, outside spigots. No luck on stopping the sputtering. I also removed those air valves previously recommended earlier up on the thread.

And since the was so large, I replaced it with a 20 gallon tank (cause of it being a monstrosity and the girlfriend didnt like the look) and put in a 20 gallon tank with a CSV. So out of the ground casing it goes: Casing>Check Valve>CSV>Pressure Tank.

The pressure switch is set to 40/60 and confirmed the tank is 38 psi and correctly cuts in and out. I am still getting sputtering and it seems to be worst with the CSV.

What I did notice, is that when the pump kicks on at 38 psi, that's when the sputtering occurs. I opened a valve right at the tank and confirmed this. The sputtering lasts 3-5 seconds and pressure builds normally.

I foolishly left the check valve in place (cause I didnt reread this thread until now).

I have confirmed no leaks. I even clapped some baby powder around the area to see if it was sucking air somewhere with no luck.

I havent been able to confirm whether or not it has a foot valve. Other than taking out the above ground check valve, I am out of ideas. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Reach4]

foolishly left the check valve in place (cause I didnt reread this thread until now).

Does that check valve have a Schrader valve on it? That would be an air admittance snifter valve. If you have that, you can put a valve cap, with a seal, on it. The valve cap for this use would be one to be used with tires, as opposed to a cap made for a drain back well. That tire valve cap would result in less air in the water, but might give a bit of a bang when the pump starts.

But going with that would be (or would have been) a drain-back valve or hole maybe 5 ft below ground in the drop pipe. That should be plugged, but sealing the snifter valve

 

[TW80CJ5]

Does that check valve have a Schrader valve on it? That would be an air admittance snifter valve. If you have that, you can put a valve cap, with a seal, on it. The valve cap for this use would be one to be used with tires, as opposed to a cap made for a drain back well. That tire valve cap would result in less air in the water, but might give a bit of a bang when the pump starts.

But going with that would be (or would have been) a drain-back valve or hole maybe 5 ft below ground in the drop pipe. That should be plugged, but sealing the snifter valve

No sir. I removed the old check valve that had the Schrader valve on it. Other than the Schrader valve on the pressure tank, there are no others in the system.

 

[Bannerman]

You haven't provided a response to Lligetfa's post #16 directly above.

If there is a bleeder valve, or simply a hole in the drop pipe within the well casing, then water can leak out from the drop pipe, thereby allowing air to enter.

An above ground check valve is often utilized to reduce the pressure within the drop pipe while the pump is OFF. The bleeder valve is intended to close whenever pressure is increased, and is to open when pressure is reduced, thereby permiting some water to drain which will cause a slight vacuum in the drop pipe above the drain location. This vacuum will cause the upper air inlet valve to open causing air to enter, until all of the water in the drop pipe above the drain location has drained back into the well.

If there is only a hole in the pipe, then water will spray from that hole whenever the pump is running. Once the pump is OFF, then the upper check valve will prevent the pressure tank from draining back into the well.

Regardless of whether there is a bleeder valve or a simple hole in the pipe, as you are using a captive air pressure tank, that drain opening will need to be eliminated by removing the bleeder valve and sealing any remaining hole. This will then permit the upper check valve to be removed, which will cause the pressure tank to maintain pressure within the drop pipe while the pump is OFF, all the way down to the check valve located within the submersible pump.