Quiet Pump for municipal water pressure boost

[sthayashi]

Hello,

TL;DR Looking for a QUIET pump to go with a PK1A Pside-Kick for a small family home.

Long time listener, first time caller here. I've recently added another story to my house, which includes a full bathroom. Unfortunately, while I was expecting a tolerable shower output, it's a little more disappointing than I thought. I measured water pressure in my house from my garden spigot at about 33 PSI, though the max needle showed that it could sometimes get as high as 80 (WTF?).

I'm on our municipal water supply and since I'm near the top of the hill, I figure that I'm getting the best I can from the city.

Lurking on these forums, I'm sold on using a Cycle Stop Valve and a Pside-Kick is going to be on my shopping list in the near future. What I'm less sure on is whether a Goulds shallow well jet pump is appropriate for my application (which is often recommended along with the CSV).

Whatever pump I'm going to get is directly under my living room, and I don't want to hear a noisy pump every time someone flushes a toilet in our house.

We have a total of 2.5 baths, and a single kitchen sink, plus usual dishwasher, washing machine, etc, packed into a 1600 ft 3 story home.

 

[Valveman]

Jet pumps are noisy. You can put it in an insulation enclosure, but you have to leave opening for air circulation. You could use a small (100 gallon or so) storage tank filled with a float valve from the city. Then drop in a submersible to connect to the PK1A. The submersible is quiet as it is water cooled and doesn't have a fan. Plus the 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark submersible pump is only 150 bucks and works great with a PK1A as a booster.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

You should soundproof the room as much as possible and perhaps isolate the pipes to keep them from telegraphing.
Cary, how much noise is introduced by the restriction in the CSV? I know dole valves and micronizers are noisy due to the restriction.

I have a submersible pump so in my house, I deliberately strapped the pipe from the well to the floor joists so that they telegraph the noise as I want to know when the pump is running. Granted, it is under my laundry room far from the living room.

 

[Reach4]

I don't know how noisy it would be, but something like https://www.zoro.com/dayton-pump-12-hp-120240vac-1-ph-4-stage-5uxf4/i/G1395475/#specifications sounds interesting. No open tank. 1/2 hp. No jet.

 

[Valveman]

I don't know how noisy it would be, but something like https://www.zoro.com/dayton-pump-12-hp-120240vac-1-ph-4-stage-5uxf4/i/G1395475/#specifications sounds interesting. No open tank. 1/2 hp. No jet.

That is just a multi-stage booster. Gonna have the same noisy fan and motor as a jet pump.

 

[Valveman]

You should soundproof the room as much as possible and perhaps isolate the pipes to keep them from telegraphing.
Cary, how much noise is introduced by the restriction in the CSV? I know dole valves and micronizers are noisy due to the restriction.

I have a submersible pump so in my house, I deliberately strapped the pipe from the well to the floor joists so that they telegraph the noise as I want to know when the pump is running. Granted, it is under my laundry room far from the living room.

The higher the back pressure the more noise a CSV makes. But a jet pump or booster pump doesn't make enough back pressure to cause any noise through the CSV. With a deep set submersible there is enough pressure to get a slight hiss from the CSV, about the same noise as a faucet.

 

[sthayashi]

You could use a small (100 gallon or so) storage tank filled with a float valve from the city. Then drop in a submersible to connect to the PK1A. The submersible is quiet as it is water cooled and doesn't have a fan. Plus the 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark submersible pump is only 150 bucks and works great with a PK1A as a booster.

Wow, this was not a route I had considered. I'm going to have to do my homework on water storage tanks then, unless you have a specific suggestion. I'm a bit out of my depth here and I don't even know how to find a local installer that knows a thing or two about storage tanks and submersibles.

For submersibles pumps, I don't see a PSI rating attached to anything. Is the effective head in this case [head height] / 2.307? I'm doing the reverse of another pump site suggesting you use [pressure switch cutoff PSI] x 2.307 and add that to water depth.

I ask since I'm trying to move water close to 30' vertically, I know I'm going to see a 13 PSI drop, so it may be a good idea to pressurize to 60-65.

Thank you for the suggestion. This is an interesting avenue to take.

 

[LLigetfa]

What is your water odor quality? Maybe an aeration tank would solve both needs.
https://actionmfg.com/product/indoor-aerators/

 

[Boycedrilling]

I have fabricated “canned” submersible boosters before. Just always have to maintain positive pressure on the inlet.

 

[Valveman]

Like LL says and aeration tank maybe all you need to put the submersible in. See how they do it for Radon or Iron aeration, yours should be very similar, except you don't need to aerate or spray into the tank.

1 PSI is the same as 2.31' of head. So, pushing another 30' means you would want a 53/73 pressure switch setting instead of the standard 40/60.

 

[Valveman]

I have fabricated “canned” submersible boosters before. Just always have to maintain positive pressure on the inlet.

A canned submersible would work great. But those cans can be expensive, and hard to make when the incoming pressure can get up to 80, as it is hard to seal around the wires.

 

[sthayashi]

What is your water odor quality? Maybe an aeration tank would solve both needs.
https://actionmfg.com/product/indoor-aerators/

Like LL says and aeration tank maybe all you need to put the submersible in. See how they do it for Radon or Iron aeration, yours should be very similar, except you don't need to aerate or spray into the tank.

Thankfully, our water odor quality is good (air on the other hand....). Unless I'm looking in the wrong place, aeration tanks are like 10 times more expensive than a standard water storage tank though.

Which brings me to another question: Just how submerged should a submersible be? Perusing water tanks made me realize that I need to be VERY careful about how tall a tank, lest I find myself with a tank too tall to put a submersible pump into. But at the same time, some of these pumps are almost 3 feet tall.

 

[Reach4]

Which brings me to another question: Just how submerged should a submersible be?

Put it horizontal in a tank usually. Use a flow inducer sleeve. Or are you thinking of maybe adapting a vertical tank like a water softener with a wide mouth? That would be interesting. I could see that.

A standard softener has a 2.5 inch thread at the top, but there are tanks with a 4 inch thread, and adapters to fit.

 

[Valveman]

Aeration tanks are more expensive, but I was just using them as an example of how small the storage tank can be. You can use a small 100 gallon or so size tank, as long as the infill is just as fast as the outgoing water. With a large float valve on the city supply, it is OK to install a submersible vertically in a small tank. The tank level just needs to stay a foot or so above the pumps intake, which is in the middle of a 3' long assembled submersible pump/motor combination. A tall and skinny tank would be fine. Something that can easily fit through a door and stand in a corner. Even a plastic 55 gallon drum would work, but it would be best if it was a little taller.

 

[sthayashi]

So has anyone heard of or used the Munro MXS 5" submersible? The 1.2 HP model seems to hit all the right numbers, it appears to be a bottom suction submersible, which means nearly no dead volume, and it's under 2' tall. It's so perfect, I need to know what's wrong with it.

 

[Valveman]

Goulds, Frankin, Pentair, and many others have those bottom intake cistern pumps. I haven't seen that one before, but they must sacrifice quality for the bottom suction. The pump is inverted with the motor on top. There is a space around the motor for the water to flow past, simulating a motor shroud or flow inducer to keep the motor cool. This decreases the diameter of the motor, and makes for smaller bearings as well. It may even spin faster than 3450 RPM to do a big job in such a small package. Either way the small package means less meat for a heat sink, or less quality.

As long as the input can keep up with the output, you will never use the bottom half of your storage tank anyway. If that is not the case a bottom feeding pump isn't going to help as only a much, much larger storage tank would let you do that. Might as well use a regular water well pump with a flow inducer and get something that will last. Many people are using the 1HP, 33GPM, Hallmark pump because they sell for 150 bucks. Making a flow inducer from a piece of 4-5 inch PVC pipe might add another 10 bucks.

 

[sthayashi]

Just to follow up (I asked Cary these questions in a PM). I found a plumber to help me install everything, but I don't have a lot of faith that he understands the higher plan, so I figure I'm on the hook for the odder components.

• I'm considering a 55 gallon Chem-tainer water tank as opposed to the 100 gallon ones Cary suggested. It fits my space much better and I realized that we really don't have anything that uses even half that amount of water, and having a lot of overhead is moot if city can keep (which I think it can). Is there a reason I shouldn't consider this?
• Is there a recommended solenoid valve? At one point, a Jobe float valve was suggested to someone in a similar situation. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it'd work well for me. I'd want the output to be submerged (I don't think I can add a pipe) and I'd rather not add a new hole for it if I don't have to.
• Is there a recommended float switch for these situations (pump cutoff / tank full)? I'd like to add at least add one to ensure the pump doesn't run dry, but I'd need another one to use alongside a solenoid valve.

Here's my shopping list so far:

• 4.5 gallon PK1A set to 65 PSI
• 1 HP 33 GPM 230V Hallmark well pump
• 55 gallon Chem-tainer water tank

 

[Valveman]

Sorry. just haven't got to all 31 messages I had from taking the weekend off. You just need a large enough storage tank to get the intake of the pump submerged and have some cushion between the booster coming on and the storage tank refilling. As long as the fill valve can keep up with the amount of water being used, you don't need a very large storage tank. I think it would work fine. Jobe has some bottom filling valves. Could also fill with a sprinkler solenoid valve and a pump up float switch, like a Rhombus brand.