Pump decision for basement water storage tank

[stapf79]

Hey all - I've been reading lots of posts here for guidance. And hoping I could get some pro's to weigh in on this decision.
I'm planning to install a 250 gallon storage tank in my basement to help with flow rates in my single-story home. My well is really deep (500'), and we've always had really poor flow rates and pressure throughout the home.
The closest diagram to what I'm planning is this one:

But now for my decision - which pump/CSV/pressure tank combo to go with. Some ideas I have:

1 - This cistern type pump, which appears to have a built-in, on-demand pressure switch. It seems like this would do the same thing the PK1A pside-kick. But I'd still have to add a small pressure tank.
https://rainwaterequipment.com/4-bottom-suction-on-demand-submersible-pump-3-4-hp/
This seems like it would be super-easy installation. And if I'm just pumping from my basement, this would provide ample flow and pressure I think. Total $400 plus the pressure tank.

2 - I've seen you guys recommend a traditional submersible pump. Would something like this work? And I'd have to purchase the full PK1A kit.
https://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-2W2V-Water-Pump/p7577.html
So there we're talking $360 for the pump, and $400 for the PK1a kit. $760 total to compare to option 1. What would be the advantages to this setup vs. option 1? Are Red Lion pumps good?

I looked into jet pumps too...but it sounds like both of the above options would be quieter and more efficient than a jet solution.

Any opinions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Valveman]

Those type controls have been around for a long time. Look at Masscontrol or Presscontrol. Most pump companies make a version of it as well. It has no control over the pressure. That pump will be running at 80-83 PSI for most water uses. The flow switch built into the device shuts the pump off when there is less than like 1/5th of a GPM flow, which means 83 PSI in the tank. The similar devices mentioned usually drop down to 30-40 PSI before starting, causing a 50 PSI difference while waiting for the tank to drain. The pressure will quickly go from 30 to 80 in the system, and run there until less than 1/5th of a GPM is being used.

Those type systems have other problems as well like a flow rate of 1/4 GPM is not enough to shut the pump off, yet not really enough to keep the pump/motor cool. A flow rate of less than 1/5th GPM will cause the pump to cycle, which slowing the cycling is the reason for the external tank. Any other flow rate is delivered at whatever the pump can produce. For instance a flow rate of 20 GPM would be at 40 PSI , while a flow rate of 2 GPM would be at 80 PSI. There are pros and cons to any pump control system.

The bottom fed motor is also nothing new. Pentair makes a STEP pump, Franklin makes one under a few different names. To have a bottom feed the motor diameter needs to be smaller. This makes the motor and bearing less robust and long lasting.

A regular water well submersible has a beefy-er motor and bearings, made to run 24/7. It can be installed on its side if the lower few inches of water in the storage tank are critical. A simple flow sleeve will keep the motor cool without needing the bottom feed thing. You can get a 1HP, 33 GPM, Hallmark for about 150 bucks last I checked.

The PK1A kit is $400.00 and has a few things to install. But there are no adjustments needed, yet they are easy if you want to change something. The CSV1A in the PK1A kit has control of the pressure. You can run a standard 40/60 pressure switch, and have the CSV maintain 50 PSI constant for most flow rates. Flow rates up to 20 GPM will be at 40 PSI constant. And any of that is adjustable if you want more pressure than that.

The main differences are.....
The CSV system uses a standard and heavy duty pump/motor and never lets it operate at less than 1 GPM for cooling flow purposes.
While the the flow switch system will let the less than robust motor work down to as little as 1/5th GPM flow.

The CSV system requires a little installation, although anyone can do it. Once installed this system will last for many years. Many of the simple, mechanical CSV valves installed over 25 years ago are now still supplying constant pressure for the children and grandchildren of those who installed them in the first place.

The flow switch system is easier to install. However, it still requires an external tank, which makes it about the same component wise. Because of the small diameter motor and extra low flow rate from a flow switch these systems will be replaced several times in comparison to one with a CSV. Replacing these type pumps regularly is common, but at least it is easy to do. lol

Another big difference is that every pump company sells a similar flow controlled type device. Yet, not a single pump company will suggest installing a Cycle Stop Valve. This is not because the flow controlled devices will make pumps last longer than a CSV, but just the opposite. Pump companies are in business to make money. If you do what they recommend, what they advertise the most, you replace your pump more often, and they get more of your money. If you do your research and figure out what makes pumps last, water will be dependably coming out of your faucets 20+ years from now, and you won't even remember you have a pump system.

 

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[stapf79]

This is great info...thanks for the thorough response. You certainty helped clarify the benefits of option 2. And your reference to the Hallmark pumps (I hadn't found anything cheaper than $350) makes the costs work better.

Now my only problem is the placement of the pump. The tank I was going to buy is only 31" wide (to fit it in the doors it needs to pass through to get to the basement storage). Those Hallmark pumps, and most others, are almost 31" long. So placing them horizontally in this tank is going to be a problem. If I place vertically, I lose 11" to 15" of storage. I guess that's the price I pay for the more reliable system?

 

[Valveman]

The last 15" would only be needed in dire emergencies. You can always dip it out if water becomes that critical. Otherwise the storage tank should refill as soon as the top 10"-15" has been used.

 

[LLigetfa]

If you could get a perfect seal at the top of a flow inducer sleeve, that should let you draw the tank down further.

 

[Valveman]

Might work but hard to get a perfect seal on a flow inducer.

 

[Reach4]

This is great info...thanks for the thorough response. You certainty helped clarify the benefits of option 2. And your reference to the Hallmark pumps (I hadn't found anything cheaper than $350) makes the costs work better.

Now my only problem is the placement of the pump. The tank I was going to buy is only 31" wide (to fit it in the doors it needs to pass through to get to the basement storage). Those Hallmark pumps, and most others, are almost 31" long. So placing them horizontally in this tank is going to be a problem. If I place vertically, I lose 11" to 15" of storage. I guess that's the price I pay for the more reliable system?

You could consider a rectangular tank. The one pictured is 250 Gallons 62"L x 29"W x 42"H.
https://www.plastic-mart.com/category/54/polyethylene-rectangle-tanks

You could also consider a 400 gallon 29 inch "doorway tank", and let the pump sit at an angle. I am not sure how navigating the pump into place would go. https://www.plastic-mart.com/category/39/doorway-water-tanks

 

[stapf79]

Well, Hallmark actually makes a shorter pump, intended for a larger diameter well. I could lay this one horizontally in the 31" diam tank:
https://www.amazon.com/Hallmark-Ind...XV2Z9PE464B&psc=1&refRID=188TZ843TXV2Z9PE464B

it's rated for 150' of head, with no pressure tank. But since I'm just pumping out of that tank in my basement, will that be enough?

Or should I just go for this Hallmark pump, and I'll keep the pump vertical, losing a few inches in the bottom of the tank?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NTT2JO4/ref=emc_b_5_t

 

[Valveman]

150' of head is only 64 PSI. Too close to run a 40/60 switch. The 1HP builds 90 PSI and will work with a pressure switch setting up to as much as 60/80 if needed.

 

[stapf79]

You could consider a rectangular tank. The one pictured is 250 Gallons 62"L x 29"W x 42"H.
https://www.plastic-mart.com/category/54/polyethylene-rectangle-tanks

You could also consider a 400 gallon 29 inch "doorway tank", and let the pump sit at an angle. I am not sure how navigating the pump into place would go. https://www.plastic-mart.com/category/39/doorway-water-tanks

Wow...I didn't realize those were a thing. Now I've got something else to consider! Hmm.

 

[LLigetfa]

Might work but hard to get a perfect seal on a flow inducer.

Not if you use regular PVC well casing and a well seal. If they can seal a flowing artesian well with the pressures involved, then a tiny bit of negative pressure should be no big deal.

 

[Valveman]

Even if you could seal it, submersible pumps need the intake submerged. Drawing water from below the suction would cause NPSH problems for the pump.

 

[stapf79]

I'm just curious - let's say I wanted to do a jet pump instead of the submersible....how do you plumb/wire the jet pump with the Pside-Kick? Most/all jet pumps I look at already have a pressure switch. Do you need both?

 

[Reach4]

I'm just curious - let's say I wanted to do a jet pump instead of the submersible....how do you plumb/wire the jet pump with the Pside-Kick? Most/all jet pumps I look at already have a pressure switch. Do you need both?

Pressure switch has to sense the the pressure after the CSV. If you get the Pside-Kick kit, easiest is to electrically bypass the terminals in the on-pump pressure switch.

If you get a CSV without the kit, you could reroute the pressure sense tube to at/after the CSV, and at the pressure tank, and plug the port on the pump that the sense line had been plugged into.

The pressure switch should always sense the pressure near the pressure tank connection.

 

[stapf79]

Pressure switch has to sense the the pressure after the CSV. If you get the Pside-Kick kit, easiest is to electrically bypass the terminals in the on-pump pressure switch.

If you get a CSV without the kit, you could reroute the pressure sense tube to at/after the CSV, and at the pressure tank, and plug the port on the pump that the sense line had been plugged into.

The pressure switch should always sense the pressure near the pressure tank connection.

Got ya. That makes sense. Any comments on acoustical performance of a jet pump vs. the submersible? I've come across some youtube vids of your typical jet pump. But can't really find much about a submersible sitting in an above-ground tank. Will it be similar in terms of noise?

 

[Valveman]

A submersible is almost completely silent.

See "jet pump" wiring for the PK1A kit here.

 

[stapf79]

OK...I think I'm settled on this submersible.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NTT2JO...olid=1V5O8MBX9AVI8&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

I think I'll be losing about 60 gallons of storage in a 250 gallon tank by not being able to access the bottom 15" - 19" due to the vertical placement of the pump. But like Cary mentioned...that should only be a problem if the draw from my house is way more than than the supply from my well for an extended period of time.

Now....if only that pump was in stock (backordered)! I guess I'll have to be patient.

 

[Reach4]

OK...I think I'm settled on this submersible.

A 33 gpm pump for a house? 10 gpm 1/2 hp would be a better match IMO. I suspect they use non-standard ratings, so maybe it is more like a 20 gpm pump. I think I remember reading something to that effect.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/shallow-well-submersible-to-replace-jet-pump.86630/#post-621773

 

[Valveman]

A 33 gpm pump for a house? 10 gpm 1/2 hp would be a better match IMO. I suspect they use non-standard ratings, so maybe it is more like a 20 gpm pump. I think I remember reading something to that effect.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/shallow-well-submersible-to-replace-jet-pump.86630/#post-621773

Even though it is a 33 GPM pump the CSV will make it work down to 1 GPM as needed. It will actually do about 20 GPM under pressure, which is enough for four houses, but the CSV will make that big pump run one shower by itself when needed. It maybe larger than needed but you can buy 3-4 of those for what a regular 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump would cost.

 

[stapf79]

Well, I liked this one too. It's rated 154' total head pressure. The pside-kick will be right by the tank...so no real head pressure caused by depth. So wouldn't 60 psi x 2.31 = 138 head, so this pump would fill the pressure tank when flow is 0. But then when I'm running water - at 50 psi running through the pipes, and let's say a 20' total height from the tank in the basement to the highest fixture in the house, that's (50 x 2.31) + 20 = 135' head. That pump will push 5gpm at that head. Thoughts on if that all makes sense?

https://www.amazon.com/Hallmark-Ind...3PR82TAD4X3&psc=1&refRID=THECYQXRN3PR82TAD4X3